PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic MIDI Module Hookup

Hi all... I was sure I posted this here last night but I don't see it today. Maybe I was dreaming Anyway... here it is again: OOPs... I just noticed that I DID post this in another thread last night... It was just before going to bed... I must have been more tired than I thought I was. Sorry.

Well… I've been having a lot of fun in Sonar for the past few hours. OK… really, it wasn't fun.

I pulled my old Roland JV-1010 out of the junk drawer the other day and started thinking about how neat it would be to use it along side of my Ketron SD2. I got the patch map file I needed and then imported it into Sonar without a hitch. I got myself an M-Audio MIDISPORT 2X2 midi interface that would give me the connections I need to hook up the two modules. Sonar recognizes the new interface, no problem.

In Sonar's MIDI setup, I have channel 1 assigned to my Ketron's 16 MIDI channels – with channel 10 assigned to the Ketron drums.

In channel 2 I have all 16 MIDI channels assigned to the Roland.

In Sonar, I insert a new MIDI track to channel 1. From there I set the in/out to the MIDISPORT A. I then choose the Ketron, a Ketron bank and then a patch. Everything works as it should

There's a button on the front of the MIDISPORT that when pushed in, gives me “USB Merged” - meaning A and B in/outs are merged together - and when it is out it gives me “MIDI Thru”- meaning A and B in/outs work separate of each other, Ketron being “A” and Roland being “B”.

With the button set to “MIDI Thru”, the Ketron set in channel 1 and connected to the “A” in/outs, everything is fine. With the button set to “USB/Merge” no sound comes out of the Ketron, as should be expected (I think).

With the button set to “MIDI Thru”, the Roland, set in channel 2 and connected to the “B” in/outs, I hear nothing. When I push in the button to “USB Merged” I notice the little light flashing on the Roland, telling me that the signal is in fact going from my keyboard controller into the Roland, but there's still no sound.

The track settings are as they should be when I go from one to the other… the Ketron on channel one and the Roland on channel 2. But there's just no sound coming out of the Roland.

I have gotten the Roland to work on it's own so I actually do know that it does still work, even if it is old.

I'm really thinking that I'm missing some other setting somewhere within this mess. I'm also hoping that I have explained my situation clear enough so that you'll be able to get some kind of picture of what it is I'm trying to do. If need be, I'll be glad to give you any other info you might want.

Any suggestions and help would be greatly appreciated.

Bobby

When the MIDI Sport is CONNECTED to your PC and your want your PC to talk to external MIDI HW over the MIDISport 2x2 LEAVE it in "MIDI Thru" (KEEP the button in the ""OUT" position) ALL THE TIME! (see excerpt from user manual below and pay attention to the NOTE).

I have a MIDI Sport 2x2 just leave button OUT (aka Thru) - I have and use a lot more gear then you so "trust me" on this one.


If Ketron is on A then in Sonar you MUST send stuff to Port A that you want Ketron to hear;
If JV-1010 is hooked to B then in Sonar you MUST send stuff over Port B that you want JV-1010 to hear. So far so good

However, I think you misunderstand "channels" and in Roland's case, I think you forgot about Patches versus Performances and what to set the part/patch knob to.


You said:

"In Sonar's MIDI setup, I have channel 1 assigned to my Ketron's 16 MIDI channels – with channel 10 assigned to the Ketron drums."

That is an incorrect statement

If/when you send something from Sonar (or any DAW) on Port A, MIDI channel 1 then the Ketron will ONLY HEAR stuff on channel 1 and will only make sounds that you have assigned inside Ketron for Channel 1.

The Ketron will (may) LISTEN for "stuff" ON the other 15 MIDI channels but since you didn’t send anything on any channel except channel 1, the Ketron will not play anything expect stuff assigned to channel 1


Now lets move to the "problem" child the JV-1010:

Now we are talking about Port B - IT is a separate set of 16 MIDI channels than those on Port A.

The Roland will ONLY hear what you send on Port B from Sonar because it, the Roland, is physically connected to port B, so far so good.

If you send stuff form Sonar to Port B on MIDI channel 2 to the JV-1010 and you heard nothing then the JV-1010 has nothing (no patch, sound, instrument) assigned to channel 2 or there no Part assigned to the Performance for channel 2.

forgoing issues like audio cable problem, have volume tuned all the way down, some other volume related issues, etc.

Try sending stuff on channel 1 to the JV-1010 on Port B (its logically and literally a DIFFERENT Channel 1 than the Channel 1 on Port A because: it's on a DIFFERENT PORT, it is on PORT B).

ALSO double check: are you in PATCH mode or PERFORMANCE mode? If in PATCH mode and the "part/patch" knob is straight up (i.e., set to "1") then it's listening for ONLY MIDI channel 1.

(from Roland manual)

" 3. PART Knob
In the Patch mode, it changes the receive channel. In the Performance mode or the GM mode, it
selects the Part to which settings are to be applied"


================
Following from MIDI Sport Manual (SEE merge section and especially the NOTE)

"7. MIDI Thru-USB/Merge button (MIDISPORT 2x2 only): This button selects whether MIDISPORT 2x2 is in MIDI Thru mode (button set to the ‘out’ position), in Merge mode (standalone operation; button ‘in’) or in MIDI Interface mode (used with a computer; button ‘in’).

USB Interface Mode

MIDISPORT 2x2 is in USB Interface mode when the MIDI Thru - USB/Merge button is set to the ‘in’ position and the device is
connected to and initialized by an active host computer via USB. In this mode the input and output ports appear as discrete inputs
and outputs in your music software and are completely independent of each other.

Merge Mode

In Merge Mode, MIDISPORT functions as a standalone device (i.e. it does not operate as an interface to a computer). All MIDI data from the In A and In B ports is combined (merged), and this merged stream is output identically on both the Out A and Out B port.

In this scenario, power must be provided by an optional USB-type external power supply, and the MIDI Thru - USB/Merge button must be set to the ‘in’ position.

➜ NOTE: In some cases, you can use Merge Mode while connected to a computer
via USB, but only if the operating system is not currently running. In this scenario,
the computer serves only as a power supply while MIDISPORT is operating as an
independent device. This is possible, because some computers provide power to their
USB jacks even when shut down or in sleep mode. Please note that it may be necessary
to disconnect and reconnect the USB cable after shutting down the computer for
MIDISPORT to disengage USB Interface Mode and enter Merge Mode.
Check the documentation associated with your computer to see if it provides power to
its USB jacks while shut down or in sleep mode. A separate USB-type external power
supply is not required if MIDISPORT is connected to such a jack.

MIDI Thru Mode

MIDISPORT 2x2 is in MIDI Thru mode when the MIDI Thru - USB/Merge button is set to the
‘out’ position. In this mode, MIDISPORT passes the In A data stream directly to Out A and
the In B data stream directly to Out B. This mode bypasses connected computers and does
not require power to operate. Thus, MIDI Thru mode can always be enabled, regardless of
whether or not MIDISPORT is connected to a computer, or a power source."



Good Luck
Larry

Hi Larry... I've been busy doing other things and sadly I haven't had a lot of time for my music. According to the wife, there are things needing to be done around the house and she has armed herself with a priority list. Seems that music is hidden on the back page of said list.

Thanks so much for the very informative reply! I'm pretty sure I'll get this issue solved via your fantastic instructions.

A big part of my problem is that I'm not very well versed when in understanding channels, ports, midi thru and the like. I've only ever had one midi module (Ketron sd2) connected with an M-Audio Uno interface. There isn't a lot of know how needed to configure this setup as the Uno is basically a plug and play unit that pretty much sets itself up.

Please forgive me if this is another dumb newb question, but when you speak of "Port A" or "Port B", are you referring to the Midi Sport's in/out A and B? Or is there somewhere in Sonar itself that has "Port" settings that can be set and applied to the modules?

I am sure that the volumes on the modules are turned up and I'm also sure that the cables are plugged into them properly so I don't think this is causing my problem. It is almost surely because of my lack of understanding. Unfortunately, I'm the kind of guy that has to be taken by the hand and shown in very simple, step-by-step instructions when it comes to complicated stuff (to me anyway) like this.

I should have a bit of time this afternoon to work on this... hopefully, with your help, I'll get things up and running.

Again... thanks so much for your help. Very much appreciated.

Bobby

When I say "Port A" equate that in your mind to the thing shown in the Sonar Preferences, under MIDI Devices that say (on right hand side) under "inputs":

"n-MIDISPORT 2X2 in A"

And under "outputs"

"n-MIDISPORT 2X2 out A"

A PORT has BOTH an input and an output. And each port handles/contains 16 MIDI channels), [don't worry about the "n" n is probably 1 or 2 on your PC - it's immaterial for this discussion]

MIDI Sport B (aka Port B) would have/contain/carry a different set of 16 MIDI channels.

http://www.noterepeat.com/articles/how-to/213-midi-basics-common-terms-explained#A


Don’t let above link confuse you the USB cable to your PC from the MIDI Sport is LOGICALLY acting like 4 separate 5-pin MIDI cables:

2 input cables (one is A and one is B) and

2 output cables (one is A and one is B)

and these logical USB to/from PC paths match the actual physical 5-pin cable connection paths ON the MIDISport going to & from your actual MIDI hardware.


ONE FINAL NOTE:

While SOANR and other DAW software allows for MULTIPLE MIDI "ports" - with BIAB you can only USE ONE.

You are limited to ONE set of 16 channels (one port), period. So if you wanted to use BOTH the Ketron and JV-1010 with BIAB at the SAME time you will have to change your connections and go:

- From MIDI Sport out A (as example only, you could use B) to SD2 MIDI input then from SD 2 MIDI THUR to the JV-1010 MIDI IN (but whatever is on any given MIDI channel will be seen and reacted to by BOTH the SD2 and JV-1010), or

- from MIDI Sport out A (as example only, you could use B) to JV-1010 MIDI input then from JV-1010 MIDI THUR or MIDI OUT (and realize that MIDI THUR functions different than MIDI OUT) to the SD-2 MIDI IN (but again whatever is on any given MIDI channel will be seen and reacted to by BOTH the SD2 and JV-1010), or

MIDI thru mirrors the input (100% of what comes in goes right back out the THUR plug unaffected);

MIDI out takes the MIDI in and then it can filter, limit, block, and or change internally by the synth before going out the MIDI out

good luck
Lary

HI again Larry.. Just want to thank you for your amazing help. I'm pleased to say that I have a good hold on midi ports and channels. I have managed to set up 2 tracks in Sonar - one for the Ketron and the other for the Roland and both are doing what they should when I click between said tracks. With one exception...

For some reason I cannot get either module to change patches within Sonar. The only sound I get from either of them is their grand piano. Each of their patch lists are there but no matter which one I choose, it doesn't change.

I've also noticed that the sounds aren't going into Sonar. The volume meters don't move and it isn't recording. Is there something I should be looking at in Sonar itself?

Again, thanks so much for your help with all of this. I sure am hoping that you're not losing patience with this dumb newb.

Bobby

Have you tried using these units with BIAB or RB? Then folks HERE can better help you learn about your audio issues and your MIDI patch select issues using BIAB or RB.

Since these are primarily how to use external HW with Sonar and you don't seem to be using your HW with BIAB, RB, or PTPA maybe it is time for you to go over to the Sonar forum for more detailed help on how to use your HW with Sonar.

I use have and Sonar but this is the PG forum.

In either case (using with BIAB/RB or Soanr) have ready more detailed info on EACH problem separately MIDI and AUDIO - don’t conflate/confuse the two - easier for folks to help to trouble shoot.


Also time for your to dig into your manuals (they aren't that big on either of these units) so you understand the unit as well as any helpful instructions on things to set or check.

Having said that I don’t own or use a SD-2 but others here do so maybe they will help you on its use.


Re: audio problem quickly:

Be able to describe exactly how your audio outputs from BOTH the SD-2 and JV-1010 are hooked into your PC (directly to sound board?, via external mixer then into PC, into an audio I/O interface like a Focusrite, Presonus, M-audio, …), your PC and the OS (win XP, 7, 8, 10), your PC's sound card.

RE MIDI

In you Sonar Preferences -> MIDI instruments for each port (that the external HW is hooked to) - do you have the correct patch maps ("instrument") selected? (Ketron SD-2 or at least GM for the SD 2) and Roland JV-1010 for the JV-1010?

You will have probably have to "import" that patch map for the JV-1010. I know for a fact that the JV-1010 is part of the Roland .ins file that Cakewalk provides so should not be an issue (look in the ..\Cakewalk Content\Sonar Platinum\Instrument folder assuming you are using platinum if using another version Artist or Sonar X3 or… look for that folder under ..\Cakewalk Content) and GM is GM so the primary SD-2 GM bank should also be trivial to call up patch changes on.



Good luck
Larry

Hi Larry...

Well, I can say with certainty and great joy that I can put an end to this thread... Everything is working as it should!!!

After a couple of hours of still getting nowhere, I was getting ready to give in and throw the Roland back into the junk drawer from whence it came. But before pulling it apart, and out of frustration, I pushed the button on the Midi Sport 2X2 to the "USB Merge" position... in other words, to the "in" position. Suddenly, because I was still hooked up to the Roland, it started working fine. I had already set up another midi track for the Ketron, so after changing the plug into my midi controller, it too worked as it should. The other thing I discovered was when assigning a patch to a track, I choose "omni" in the "channel" drop-down box. For some reason or another I had my brain wrapped around this "channel" thing, thinking it was very important to assign one to each patch. (Hey... what do you expect from a pain in the butt newb?) I guess it would be safe to say that I can put "channels" out of my head for now.

I recorded on both tracks and playback is beautiful. I also was able to get my desk back as it was buried by the miles of temporary "test" wires that accumulated. Life is good.

I wasn't planning on, nor will I be using the JV-1010 in BIAB because I usually only use BIAB for bass and drum tracks and I sometimes keep the guitar and/or piano tracks that I import into Sonar and do the rest of my song there. The Ketron looks after these imported tracks very well for me, as it has been doing for a long time.

That being said, the JV-1010 has, for instance, something that could be like at least 20 (I haven't actually counted them) different bass patches that are at my disposal... giving me a LOT more choices than what the Ketron offers.

When things were up and running I did some exploring in the JV-1010. I had forgotten how many patches this thing has. The "64 voice grand piano" is spectacular. It has loads of cool sound effects that I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun with. While I was playing around with it my wife came in to see where these strange sounds were coming from.

Just want to thank you once again for teaching me about "Ports" and how to set them up and use them. Without learning about this, the JV-1010 would have been tossed back in the junk drawer two days ago. Also, thanks for your patience... so much appreciated. Perhaps after this adventure I'm not quite a complete and total newb anymore.

Bobby

"Merge" (aka USB mode) on MIDISport, you are correct and it was my MISTAKE and I apologize for wasting your time leading you in the wrong direction it SHOULD be "IN."

When I glanced at it in my rack it looked like it was set "OUT" so I rationalized why it needs to be "OUT" it's been fixed in that position ("IN" - aka USB aka merge) for years - I never touch it, until just now to verify how it was set - oops)

good luck
Larry

Not a problem, Larry. Sometimes it's better for me to find things out on my own as I tend to retain what I've stumbled on and learned. You still helped me out a lot in other ways. (Port A, Port B, what they are and how to set them up) Without learning this I'd still be using the Ketron only.

BTW... I gave myself a good lesson in using channels all afternoon. Good news is, I came out a winner.

Bobby

Yes. The side of midi that I think is underused by many is the patch change and in particular the CC midi commands. That doesn't need much money and can really make stuff easier live or in the studio.