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Tom,
Did you work through the tutorial I suggested?
No, and I'm not going to because . . .
[quote=Noel96]In this regard, BIAB is not like sheet music. That's bad enough, but they don't say so. In fact, they have gone to great lengths to conceal it. "BIAB doesn't do repeats." Simple enough. As a result they forfeit my trust. I'm done with their so-called documentation. What's the point? How would I know they aren't using words in some proprietary sense known only to them, causing me no end of frustration and wasting of time, with the object of defrauding me? I wouldn't ask BIAB what day it was. Your example works as you say. But I note that the resulting bar numbers are incorrect. The bar after the eight-bar section is bar nine, not bar 17. In any case, in my situation, as described in the OP, "repeat" still doesn't work. 1. 4 measures intro followed by 2. 16 bars repeated once. I have done it every possible way, and every time, I get a repeat sign at bar 5, and an end repeat sign at bar 16, and when I play the song, there is no repeat, in contradiction of what the written music says. If no repeat has been created, why does a repeat appear?
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If you're doing much more than a simple repeat, using the signs can become confusing. Tell me about it. But it's what I need to do. The system of repeats, endings, etc. was developed because it was needed. It's still needed, for the same reasons. Accordingly, the terms have become standardized. What is the justification for departing from it? What you do when you're working on your own is your affair. Make up whatever terminology you like. When working with other musicians, who are favoring you with their time and effort, you have no right to expect them to learn your terminology. They have the right to expect you to learn theirs. Same with software.
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Tom, I disagree with this statement in relation to my comment about BIAB not being like sheet music. That's bad enough, but they don't say so. In fact, they have gone to great lengths to conceal it. Since I started using BIAB in 2006, I've only ever known it to be performance software. As far as I'm aware, it's never pretended to be anything else. Is the below what you are after?  The bars for each section are correct given what I've enetered. Two times through the first section (16 bars) means the second section starts on bar 37. Then two times through the second section (12 bars) means the end will come at bar 61 (as shown). If so, here's a link to the SGU file. I wonder if you have been entering "1" in the repeats instead of "2" ? It sounds like you might be thinking "once through and then one repeat" and so you put "1" in the number of repeats. BIAB, on the other hand, is interpreting the number of repeats as the "number of times through a section" so, if you want a section to play twice, "2" needs entering. For the record, I'm a user like you. I am not a representative of PG Music. I spent time putting this post and my previous posts together for you because I could hear your frustration. If I get a chance tonight, when I come in from work, I'll detail how I entered the repeats. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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How to create the above SGU file. 1. Start a new work sheet (File | New). 2. Set a part marker on Bar 5. 3. Enter chords for intro. 4. Starting at bar 5, enter chords for 16 bars. 5. Right-click on bar 20 and select "Repeats/Codas/1st-2nd Endings". 6. Set up the Repeat dialogue exactly as I have for 1, 2, 3.  7. Click on #4 and the repeat will be generated. 8. Add a part marker at bar 37. 9. Beginning at bar 37, add 12 bars of chords. 10. Right-click on bar 48 and select "Repeats/Codas/1st-2nd Endings". 11. Now set up this new Repeat dialogue exactly as I have for 1, 2, 3.  12. Click on #4 and the repeat will be generated. Lastly, make sure that the "Fakesheet" mode is activated.  This is very quick to prepare and should do the job if I'm interpreting your original post correctly. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Tom.... your replies are now becoming a bit childish. Everyone here is really trying to help you. To say that PG music goes to great lengths to "hide" something important from you is a really big stretch. You've lost trust in them because they didn't provide you with some minutia details that really doesn't matter? Really? Get a grip. They provide you with some amazing software. Learn what it does before you go ripping them for what you feel is something they didn't include in the manual.
Now this.....
The main reason repeats were invented for sheet music was for a few simple reasons. All music was written and transcribed by hand during that time. Imagine having to get 50 copies of a classical piece together for an orchestra or a choir before the days of the printing press. They didn't normally write 3 minutes songs like we do now. They had masterpieces that were really long.
Now imagine having to write it all out in a linear form. It would be extraordinarily time consuming. So someone invented the repeats and d.c. al codas to make the task of copying the music and duplication much less time consuming. Not only the time savings, but at the time, good quality paper was also a rare commodity and very expensive. So, using the signs and road maps saved time, money, and paper. It was common sense.
No, it's not really needed now days. With modern printing and cheap paper,it's not really needed anymore. Using it is traditional and will save some trees if the music is on paper.... but it's now becoming popular to use a computer and software to display the music, so..... nope.... it's not needed. Can you say "teleprompter" and "laptops"?
I'm not making up terminology to suit my personal needs. I'm classically trained. I'm using the terminology I learned in my music lessons so many decades ago. My piano teacher taught me all that terminology and more. My music theory class.... 2 years of study in music theory by itself taught me so much more and added to what my piano teacher was teaching me. I was expected to know it and use it which I did. Just so you know... I also had several years of drum lessons and played percussion in the school orchestra and the marching band. So, my background in music is fairly extensive. I'm self taught on guitar and mandolin.
Now, here you come, as a new user..(and Welcome to the group BTW) ... we've been using this software for many, many years, using it in BOTH ways... some like to use it folded and others prefer it unfolded according to our preferences.... both of which work perfectly, by the way...and you're ready to file a complaint against PG because you think they shorted you on information from the manual about how something works behind the scenes?
First of all..... there's no way, with everything this software can do, that PG can put every detail in the manual. If they did, it would be like the Encyclopedia Britannica. Very large, heavy and expensive. The manual is to help get you started. Then, you're expected to take it from there.
Second, like the rest of us, you will need to figure out, on your own mostly, how you want to accomplish what YOU specifically want to do and how you want to do it regarding the use of this program, regardless, or in spite of, what the manual does and doesn't tell you.
We can offer our insights learned from using it for many years. Hopefully, our goal is to save you hours of frustration and get on track quickly. You can decide if you like that advice or want to blaze your own path and learn it that hard way, on your own.
Peace....
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/25/16 03:00 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What you do when you're working on your own is your affair. Make up whatever terminology you like. When working with other musicians, who are favoring you with their time and effort, you have no right to expect them to learn your terminology. They have the right to expect you to learn theirs.
Tom, are you a bit unhappy? Lots of people here have worked hard, just trying to help you. Did you get that bit? These people are unpaid forum members. They don't work for PGMusic, or get any compensation to participate here. They unselfishly put in big efforts in their own unpaid time to help others, like you. I'm beginning to think you don't get that bit. Write to PGMusic to complain about their product if you wish, but please don't complain to the ones here trying hard and unselfishly to help you. Sheeez. Like Herb said: 'Peace' 
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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I wonder if you have been entering "1" in the repeats instead of "2" ?
It sounds like you might be thinking "once through and then one repeat" and so you put "1" in the number of repeats. BIAB, on the other hand, is interpreting the number of repeats as the "number of times through a section" so, if you want a section to play twice, "2" needs entering. Yes, that's it. I can't believe it. That isn't what repeat means in plain English, let alone what repeat means in music. When you play the first 16 bars the second time, what are you repeating? The first 16 bars. That's one repeat. When you play the first 16 bars the first time, what are you repeating? When you're done, how many repeats did you play? 5 days lost on this. If 1 is an invalid number why don't they say so? Then their incompetence in language would be a relatively minor irritation. As it is . . . 
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Tom.... your replies are now becoming a bit childish. Everyone here is really trying to help you. To say that PG music goes to great lengths to "hide" something important from you is a really big stretch. You've lost trust in them because they didn't provide you with some minutia details that really doesn't matter? Really? Get a grip. They provide you with some amazing software. Learn what it does before you go ripping them for what you feel is something they didn't include in the manual. I'll rip them just as hard as they deserve if it's OK with you. Repeats are not "minutia [sic] details". They are basic. Get a grip.
No, it's not really needed now days. With modern printing and cheap paper,it's not really needed anymore. Using it is traditional and will save some trees if the music is on paper.... but it's now becoming popular to use a computer and software to display the music, so..... nope.... it's not needed. Can you say "teleprompter" and "laptops"?
Can you say "music stand"? If repeats are obsolete why doesn't BIAB say so instead of pretending to provide for them? If paper is obsolete why is there a print function? Tell me you're kidding and we'll have a laugh.
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It's easy to forget that, while BIAB supports music notation, it is not primarily a notation program; it is an auto-accompaniment program. I generally go the other way from what Tom is doing. I compose in BIAB and then write the final chart in a notation program. But if you follow all the help above, you can enter a chart into BIAB and produce a correct accompaniment backing track.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Tom, I'm glad to read that you got the repeats working. 5 days lost on this. If 1 is an invalid number why don't they say so? Then their incompetence in language would be a relatively minor irritation. As it is . . . It's unfair of you to blame these five lost days on either PG Music or me. While I agree with you that a note in the repeat dialogue box regarding how entering numbers for repeats works would have been useful, and I'll be emailing PG Music with this suggestion of yours (and accrediting it to you), I pointed you in the direction of the tutorial and the accompanying folder around 7 - 8 hours after your original post (if I'm interpreting the time stamps correctly). You chose not to listen to me regarding this information. As you said a couple of posts later when I asked if you'd worked through the tutorial... No, and I'm not going to because . . . When I started helping you, I knew nothing about how BIAB treated repeats. I worked through the tutorial (that took about 15 mins), and with the knowledge gained from that, I had a look at the songs in the below folder that I mentioned to you in my post. - \bb\Tutorial - Repeats and Endings
If you'd opened the PG Music example "repeat Tutorial Example 3 -repeats entered.MGU" below...  ...and then used the repeat editor to inspect how the 5x repeat was set up...  ...you could have saved yourself a number of days. The information is all there.  All in all, it took me around an hour to understand how BIAB repeats work and to work through PG Music's examples. Just so you know, I spent MUCH more time typing posts up to try and help you. I'm curious... why didn't you consider thanking me for solving your problem? Is such an expectation unreasonable? I get the impression that you're also blaming me for not having the answer sooner. As already mentioned, I am not PG Music staff. I'm a user just like you... nothing more, nothing less. All help I give on these forums has to be slotted in around my day job. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Well, I will thank you, Noel. Your ability and patience never fails to amaze.
This program has quite a learning curve. I learn something new almost every day even after spending about 25 years. On the other hand, it's tremendously powerful and I've used it to help me work on at least ten albums.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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It's easy to forget that, while BIAB supports music notation, it is not primarily a notation program; it is an auto-accompaniment program. It's easy to forget that car wheels used to have spokes and were made of wood. Suppose you bought a new car with GPS and it didn't work. You take it back and they tell it's primarily a car.
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...you could have saved yourself a number of days. The information is all there. I'm done with their documentation. ...All in all, it took me around an hour to understand how BIAB repeats work and to work through PG Music's examples. That's preposterous. I did it in Sibelius and Guitar Pro in under 10 seconds each without reference to the manuals, let alone a tutorial, let alone the internet. Repeat means repeat. I'm curious... why didn't you consider thanking me for solving your problem? Is such an expectation unreasonable? I get the impression that you're also blaming me for not having the answer sooner. Sorry, I was angry. Thanks and apology. I'm not blaming you, but I am curious, what led you to believe that the faulty "number of repeats" dialog was the problem?
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I extend my thanks to you also, Noel.
You have obviously put in a big effort to provide the assistance you did. Please accept my show of appreciation. I'm not so sure that all parties to this thread have been so appreciative, simply preferring to avoid documentation and getting angry when things didn't work out.
Thanks again Noel and to the others that contributed.
Trev
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Tom -
As Noel said, the information is all there (and here on the forum by asking). But if you ignore the information provided, well, we can't help you, as many of us have tried to do since you started posting back in 2013 - to include myself (hey, at least I did get a thanks back then), Matt, Mac, GuitarHacker, even Peter Gannon, and several others).
But I am impressed that you were able to fully learn Sibelius in under 10 seconds. I think that's better than even Daniel Spreadbury could do.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Matt and Trevor, I appreciate your vote of confidence  All the best to you both! Noel P.S. Happy belated birthday Trev.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Tom, Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. I am curious, what led you to believe that the faulty "number of repeats" dialog was the problem? What initially got me thinking was that I saw the "5x" over the top of the second of the pair of repeats in the PG Music example "repeat Tutorial Example 3 -repeats entered.MGU". That got me thinking and doing a bit of research. I know you're adamant about what repeat means but I looked up some of my old classical theory books and repeat is, more often than not, described as simply "to play more than once". Then I thought about the volta brackets, what people commonly call the first and second (or more) endings, and I realised that when I play those, I don't think the word "repeat". What I think is, "I play these bars the first time through and then I play those bars the second time through". That was when logic kicked in and I realised that PG Music's terminology might be from the perspective given in my theory books as well as the volta brackets. That is, I needed to specify what "more than once" actually means. I entered "2", I tried it out, and it worked. Later, when I discovered how to check the settings for repeats, the details entered in "repeat Tutorial Example 3 -repeats entered.MGU" confirmed my thoughts. Lastly, something else that I picked up from the tutorial and the associated files... Because BIAB approaches repeats from a performance perspective and not from a sheet music perspective, after generating the backing, the bars that play during the repeat will have a variation of accompaniment (just like a real group/ensemble). I'm yet to confirm this but, at first glance, it also seems as though it's possible to expand the repeat section using the Fakesheet button and to enter slightly different chords in the repeat so that the performance perspective's realism is enhanced. For example, the image below is taken from page 394 of the 2014 pdf manual. This was the first example I worked on using the tutorial.  As you can see bars 4 and 20 are slightly different but essentially the same from a harmonic progression perspective. (In the tutorial, bars 17 to 24 become condensed into the repetition of bars 1 to 8.) If this ability to vary harmony in a repeated section exists, it's a very powerful feature. I know that it is something that I will be using. So... at the end of this road, I want to thank you too. If it hadn't been for your question, I would have never discovered any of this. I am grateful for the journey that helping you has taken me on. All the best to you, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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