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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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This has probably been discussed before, but as with all old topics, we have new people to chip in. A lot of people here talk happily and proudly about collaborating on songs with other users around the country or even around the world. I would like to state my experiences and see how they are alike or different from yours. A couple of years back I connected with Rog over in Jolly Olde and we had a very nice working relationship. I had some stuff to which I thought I would like BGV added, and had nobody to sing them. He had a music school with eager students. I sent him songs, and his kids added parts. I got my BGVs, they got experience. Everybody won. We then took it a step further where the England side wrote a song and he sent it to me to write and sing a verse and a bridge, and his kids handled the choruses and remaining vocals. That turned out very well. It was a surfing song and had Beach Boys or Jan and Dean written all over it. The next step then was that one of his girls liked one of my songs and wanted to do her own take on it, and they nailed it! She took a country-ish ballad and made a more pop feel song of it, and I loved what they did. Then another girl did a rendition of a song, and his 3rd girl did the vocals by my request on a third. All outstanding results! Now, with all that said, the only one that, in my mind, was truly a collaboration was the surf song, because we WROTE it together. Maybe I need to define that word a little more broadly to myself, but when they added parts or redid songs I don't really consider that collaboration. That was just studio work for hire. So that brings me to my real question. (I know I am historically long winded.) WHY do you want to collaborate? Is it because you are stuck for a lyric, or a chord progression, and maybe just feeling a little stale? I feel like if I can't finish my own song, my own story, this little slice of MY life, I have failed as a songwriter, because who can really tell my story better than I can? I had one songwriter (not on here) tell me that she uses a co-writer when she gets stuck for a lyric. Well, I not only use a lot of words, I feel like I use them pretty well, so that is rarely going to be a problem for me. So when do you turn to someone else? When you NEED them, or because you WANT them? My issues are more of motivation. I have like 18 songs either part way recorded, or part way written, or in the area of lyrics on a napkin, envelope or restaurant place mat. I just have no drive to take them any further. As I said on another post and I think it was Herb who said the same thing, once I finish with something I feel no pressing need to do that thing again, so when I finished that "bucket list" CD, that is now done and I am looking for the next new thing I want to do. Sadly, to date that new thing is to be on vacation from working for the rest of my life.... 
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I do it because it's fun.
I'm simple like that.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I've only tried this once with someone from this forum, more for an experiment (or 'fun') than for any defined "purpose" or occasion. I come up short when it comes to lyrics and vocals, to answer that part of your question, but I have found that once a basic groundwork in the lyrics department has been laid out, I can potentially tweak or even add to that framework to complete the task. I just don't seem to have the ability to start them from scratch (see my "motto" in sig), hence the need for assistance in that field. And as for the voice, I'm still waiting for that tc Helicon thing to come on my platform in BBox, for nothing short of massive digital manipulation could ever hope to make my vocals even the slightest presentable  As for that forenamed experimental collaboration, it didn't quite go as well as hoped, mainly due to different ideas on both ends as to what was actually required. Or, to be more specific, I wanted just "the paint on my fully constructed house", whereas the lyric partner expected to have more leave way to "tear down (or add) to the building" to further complete said "house" alongside the paintwork. So there were different expectations on both ends before going in, a notable lesson in that somewhere I'm sure. I should add that I'm very much used to working solo when it comes to music, which could also be another way of saying I'm really not the best at working with others. But that's a whole 'nother aspect of this topic altogether...and a very significant one, I' say 
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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eddie1261
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I wanted just "the paint on my fully constructed house", whereas the lyric partner expected to have more leave way to "tear down (or add) to the building" to further complete said "house" alongside the paintwork That is why I don't look to do it. I know what I want. I have a sound in my head and I can't explain it to you other than to say I'll know when I hear it. I know the story I am trying to tell way better than you do. Where I would need collaborative input is more like "I am a horrible guitar player. Can you give me 8 bars right there at 54?" but the creative process has to be all me or I don't feel like it's my song. Then get into the longshot aspect of "What if the song gets picked up and hits big?" If I wrote 2 verses and a chorus, and you wrote the bridge, who makes then money? Is that written into a contract somewhere? Without my verses and chorus, is it a song? Without your bridge, is it a song? That would have to all be written on paper before I'd get involved with it. The time you think it is not necessary, it will somehow manage to become necessary.
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If you get the right collaboration partner it's a "the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts" thing.
I've been working with a songwriting partner for more than a year now, 14 songs together so far. We both bring a skill set to the table that the other doesn't have, or is weak in.
Plus, as rharv said, it's fun! We have a blast working on the songs together, there is a lot of back and forth banter as we develop each song. She is in Germany, I am in Canada, so this is all done by email.
Music needs to be fun (for me) or there is no point whatsoever to do it, there certainly isn't any money to be made.
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I believe 110% in the statement that the sum is greater than the parts when you have the right collaborating partner on a song. I got started collaborating because I enjoy interacting with other musicians and writing together just takes that to a higher level. I was hearing people post music and thinking to myself that I could add a guitar part to that. I really got started into serious collaboration when I heard a song that was a rough demo. I contacted the individual and offered help with the music. Long story short, it turned out that there was another writer involved and the three of us worked on the song until we called it finished. I went on to write many collabs with that first lady. Eddie asked the question: "Who can really tell my story better than I can?" I submit that a team can tell it better. A case in point is the following song. It was started as a lyric by Pat Bishop to her sister who had breast cancer at the time. It was about her sister and cancer. It was sent to Dena who changed it to a broader appeal by rewriting it into a love song and adding a basic melody. I jumped in and tweeked the music and together, the team did what the individual could not. Here's that song we worked on together: In A World Without You It was a 100% online collab. Sometime after the song was finished, as it turned out, my wife and I were headed to Nashville as tourists for a few days. I mentioned this to Pat in email, and unknown to us when we booked the trip, Pat was also going to Nashville to see her sister, who was the inspiration for the song and who happens to live in Nashville. Dena, at the time, lived in Clarksville, about 40 miles north, so we planned a get together lunch and met, had a good time, and got to know each other a bit better. With the internet and high speed connections, collaborating around the world is easier than working with someone in your own hometown. Each partner brings a unique viewpoint to the process. When I get stuck, my writing partner sees it differently and might suggest that we scrap something and go in a different direction. Often that opens doors that I would never have seen or though of. I really enjoy the process of creating music with other people. And yes...absolutely, you have to find the right person to work with in order to have a smooth, and enjoyable, writing session or project. There are songs that I want to write totally solo with no outside input. I've got plenty of those, but the best songs I've written (at least IMHO) are the ones that I collaborated on... long hours of contemplating what the other person has written, and thinking new things on it and bouncing it back and forth. Most of the collabs have been bounced back and forth between 7 to 20 times with 10 to 12 being average. And that's just the lyrics. A good collaborator is a rare thing to find. If you are fortunate to find one, enjoy the time and the results of the interaction. I have found that by working with other writers, my own solo writing has improved. Steel sharpens steel.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Interesting question Eddie. I have had loads of collaborations and all have them have worked out well with the exception of two that were with people not from this site.
One was where I was inspired by someone's poem and made a song out of it ( changing the words but keeping the intent) and that went wrong because I had not cleared with her that I would be changing the words up front.
One thing I have learned on the cowriting front is that every writer must look after his or her own interests. Ie. he must have his or her own publisher and register the cowritten song (as well as you registering your 50% with your own publisher). This is the only way for them to get royalties.
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 01/06/17 07:12 AM.
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I do it to use people, and there talents....and they use me for the same.
When you hook up with the right person it turns into a fun, fulfilling project!
Vocals, leads, structure, it is all laid bare to rip apart & re-assemble, and even tho I do know what I want & have the sound / style in my head, being open with someone you enjoy working with can take a track to another level.
Then there are those that you wish you had never started......THAT is when a collab sucks the life out of ya......
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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For me, online collabs are missing that magic of being together in the room. When you're face to face in the room together and it clicks there's a very present palpable creative energy going on. It is really fun and feels way more like play than work. I was so surprised how much I missed that from the online experience. Online collabs can be great in their own way - not saying that can't be fun too - I've done it and for the most part enjoyed it. It's just a whole lot different and maybe a little more like working apart than playing together imo. I'm very comfortable doing my own thing. Still, a good co-writer brings different things to the table. I've only co-written with a few people. The longest ongoing was put together by our publisher at the time. When I co-write we split shares equally Eddie - easier and less stressful. It's a lot like dating. Great when you relate and not when you don't. If you don't get a signed collab agreement that covers all the little details that are going to come up - and unfortunately most people don't - at least make your expectations perfectly clear up front and keep all those emails. 
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Can I answer in the form of a cliche-filled song? I'm imagining Bob Hope and Bing Crosby crooning this together on a "Road to Somewhere Else" film: That's What You Bring to the TableI was perfectly happy with working as one
Thinking that I was second to none
I've learned to do things by myself
I wasn't looking for help from anyone else
I couldn't hear the part that was missing
I just couldn't see what wasn't there
But now that you've filled the hole, just listen
The final result has no competition
(CHORUS)
That's what you bring to the table
Something I could never have done by myself
Working together, you showed we are able
To make this into something else
Something much grander
A real outstander
That's what you bring
That's what you bring to the table
Suddenly words on the page can sing
I'd only done half the job with this thing
I thought I was clever, how I put it together
But you've made it a song
Like it was there all along
(PRECHORUS)
I said I was done
With what I'd begun
But you made it more
Raised up the floor
Made it into something
Really worth waiting for
(CHORUS)
That's what you bring to the table
Something I could never have done by myself
Working together, you showed we are able
To make this into something else
Something much grander
A real outstander
That's what you bring
That's what you bring to the tableIs it cheating to write the lyrics and melody in a song that literally is about collaborating on lyrics and melody?
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Sundance, I agree with having real live folks (as compared to dead or drunk ) is the way to go, but when you live in an area, like I do, where there are some musicians, but they would rather party 75% and only play 25%, then on-line collabs are the only way to go most days. As for contracts & such, each situation will dictate that for me..... 
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Is it cheating to write the lyrics and melody in a song that literally is about collaborating on lyrics and melody? I'd say it's very fitting Out of interest, do you have the melody part of this around somewhere, or is that yet to be made?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Out of interest, do you have the melody part of this around somewhere, or is that yet to be made? Nothing yet.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Out of interest, do you have the melody part of this around somewhere, or is that yet to be made? Nothing yet. You don't say?...interesting
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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I do it because it's fun.
I'm simple like that. I'm currently working on a collab with guitarists from UK. I'm excited to hear their results. I'm working toward my second $million, I've given up on my first!
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I took part in that "Res Rocket" collaboration concept way back in the 90's via their Cubase interface (mentioned this recently in another thread), and that was a helluva lot of fun. So this isn't something I've closed the door on in any way, even if I've not sought out for it around this crowd here. It's just that, back then it was all in the name of fun, no illusions of some "end goal", let alone a moneymaking one, or what have you.
If you can let go of all of that, then this sort of thing can be very rewarding in its own right.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Where can we listen to your songs? Thanks,
Trax
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David, Glad to have inspired you!
Anybody here ever used Skype to co-write?
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Where can we listen to your songs? Thanks,
Trax The "Showcase" section of this forum is where users generally share the songs they've made with BBox, if that is your question.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Some are covers of copyrighted songs so I can't post them. One is a collaboration with forummate ROG from Kent, UK. ROG is so professional that he interpreted my wants needs perfectly without my needing to explain. He added his tasteful guitar work over my BIAB rhythm bed. Find someone who thinks in sync with you and the end result can be awesome. Donny Maybelle:http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1209254&content=songinfo&songID=13352813A couple of years back I connected with Rog over in Jolly Olde and we had a very nice working relationship.
BTW, the tune is enjoying airplay in Scotland and the Canadian Maritime Provinces. You wonderful friends knew us before fame corrupted us.
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