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Concession:
"Obviously no one, myself included, enjoys being simply told 'you're wrong.' Had someone asked, 'are you saying meaning and usage of a word never change,' this probably would have gone in a different direction."
I read somewhere, recently, that we can't include all context in a simple piece of text.
Is it some sort "feelings" thing to be hurt by having an error pointed out.
"In fact that was exactly what I said. You are misconstruing "... first said ..." to include an additional meaning of immutable."
You make the case for me.
When at 1st we misconstrue you take the wee from me & you.
You seem to hate in others what you see within yourself.
Does PG Music believe in nominative determinism?
Now, down to the point of these forums:computer aided creativity.
Axiom: Beware the bath bubbles of soapy sophistry for each bubble contains a Barking Spider to foul the waters.
Last edited by rayc; 01/06/23 09:02 PM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Joined: Dec 2021
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Apprentice
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My goodness, are we feeling a bit touchy?
I conceded to Byron that I had used the word "first," as he noted that that implied immutability.
And as you have no doubt read in the post immediately prior to your most recent one here, I agreed that there was a reasonable implication that that was what I meant.
However, as you have also undoubtedly read, there is an alternative reading that doesn't mean that at all.
My concession was to Byron, not my view on the meaning of words.
Given how you've elected to read what I wrote, I see I neglected to add 'when you're not,' to the end of 'Nobody like to be told,"You're wrong."
Regardless, it seems odd that you feel the need to construe "dislike" into the emotion of "hate" and seeming imply I'm engaging in the classic psychological defense mechanism of projection.
And then as in your prior post you again engage in ad hominum attack with your "barking spider" ditty.
I'm puzzled. You seem bright enough to defend your ideas with out such resort.
Suffice it to say you haven't. Nor have you been able to provide a single word in the English language that no longer means what it meant.
I wish you could be a little more transparent about your viewpoint so we could discuss it as adults.
Help! I've fallen up and can't get down!
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… Words mean what they mean as they were first meant. … That is not at all true — and never was. It is entirely true - and always has been. That doesn't mean that the meaning of words don't/ can't change over time. It simply means that when uttered or written by the originator, the originator knew what they meant. So if you care to listen to lyrics or read a passage from something created years ago, you will only understand if you know the meaning of the word as it was meant ... not what it may or may not mean contemporarily. Apparently, it also means that you can take things entirely out of context and use it as an excuse to blather on and on and on and on and…
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Journeyman
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Personally, I write songs using the English language, occasionally using the word 'cause' instead of 'because'. Unless the listener is irascible, they'll know what you're saying and be acquiescent of the wording.
P.S. In English "Go throw some hay over the fence to my cows"
In French "Go throw over the fence my cow some hay"
Kajun Jeaux
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Apparently, it also means that you can take things entirely out of context and use it as an excuse to blather on and on and on and on and…
This is actually quite funny that the author of "This is not true - and never was," instead of providing any rational support for his assertion simply demeans by calling my replies "blather." Perhaps he could provide even a single, critical example of a word that no longer means what it once did?
Last edited by DFT; 01/10/23 11:25 AM.
Help! I've fallen up and can't get down!
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Last edited by Gordon Scott; 01/10/23 12:05 PM.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Songwriting
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Gordon, thank you. I've read both your links. It seems I've ruffled feathers because some think I've somehow said words never change what they once meant. I think I actually said they mean what they first meant. I think it is most accurate to say that that is true, but that usage changes. In the Reader's Digest examples of 'unbelievable' and 'fizzle' this is well illustrated. These are both examples of words whose original meanings persist ... or else how could the writer define what they originally meant, but now have change usage. Unbelievable has gone according to the author from 'lying' to 'hard to believe.' Fizzle had gone from the 'escaping gas' as in a carbonated beverage to something in the process of 'failing' or 'playing out.' Actually, I think most commonly uses as 'fizzled out'... as happens when your soda goes flat. I think in both examples the changing usage is quite clearly an understandable progression of usage. And, were you to read or hear sung anything created when the earlier meaning was dominant, you would need to know that meaning to understand ... which would be what it meant when first used. It is one thing for language to organically evolve. It is another to promote a politically motivated cancellation of words to promote a particular ideology. I think they are adept at that in authoritarian countries.
Help! I've fallen up and can't get down!
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Here's a partial list of words and phrases deemed by the Stanford Elimination of Harmful Language Initiative to no longer be used. You can see whether you agree and/ or check out the rationale with the link, but it seems clear from what they call 'Context,' that this is ideological cancellation, not organic evolution of usage. Example: even though they report the use of 'calling a spade a spade' dates to the Greeks, because the word contained in the phrase has in times and places been used derogatorily, we should no longer use the phrase. crazy (sorry, Patsy Cline!) addicted (back to the drawing board, Robert Palmer.) he she ladies gentlemen American abort Indian summer Oriental thug barrio blackbox brown bag cakewalk ghetto grandfather call a spade, a spade white paper convict immigrant prisoner abusive relationship beating a dead horse crack the whip kill two birds with one stone killing it more than one way to skin a cat pull the trigger rule of thumb circle the wagon hooray long time no can do normal person
Help! I've fallen up and can't get down!
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Songwriting
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Veteran
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Here's a partial list of words and phrases deemed by the Stanford Elimination of Harmful Language Initiative to no longer be used. You can see whether you agree and/ or check out the rationale with the link, but it seems clear from what they call 'Context,' that this is ideological cancellation, not organic evolution of usage. Example: even though they report the use of 'calling a spade a spade' dates to the Greeks, because the word contained in the phrase has in times and places been used derogatorily, we should no longer use the phrase. crazy (sorry, Patsy Cline!) addicted (back to the drawing board, Robert Palmer.) he she ladies gentlemen American abort Indian summer Oriental thug barrio blackbox brown bag cakewalk ghetto grandfather call a spade, a spade white paper convict immigrant prisoner abusive relationship beating a dead horse crack the whip kill two birds with one stone killing it more than one way to skin a cat pull the trigger rule of thumb circle the wagon hooray long time no can do normal person That list is total BS!
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I think I actually said they mean what they first meant.
And you were wrong — but you keep doubling down.
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Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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I think I actually said they mean what they first meant.
And you were wrong — but you keep doubling down. It could be interesting were you to demonstrate the ability to support your opinion, inasmuch as you've offered nothing other than to say I'm wrong. Perhaps you could try 'I see it differently' or 'the way I look at it?' That might lead to a more agreeable method of explaining where you find fault with my statement. Simple reiteration of ultimate conclusion without any explanation can leave the reader with the impression of pontification.
Help! I've fallen up and can't get down!
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I think I actually said they mean what they first meant.
And you were wrong — but you keep doubling down. It could be interesting were you to demonstrate the ability to support your opinion, inasmuch as you've offered nothing other than to say I'm wrong. Perhaps you could try 'I see it differently' or 'the way I look at it?' That might lead to a more agreeable method of explaining where you find fault with my statement. Simple reiteration of ultimate conclusion without any explanation can leave the reader with the impression of pontification. And yet it doesn’t stop. Time to change the channel.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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[quote=DFT][quote=Mike Halloran] I think I actually said they mean what they first meant. Time to change the channel. You're welcome to grab the remote anytime. Since you are self-evidently incapable of a cogent response, I see no reason to seriously consider your pontifications. The curious reader will see that I've comprehensively laid out my view. What have you offered?
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