PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows BIAB Jazz standards files, where to get/purchase.are they legal

Hi,
I have seen several posts in the past about biab files with melody and lyrics being illegal, but I still have a question about this.

If someone in this forum is knowledgeable about this, as I am almost certain there is, would you mind clarifying exactly what that means?

Does it mean no one sells or is allowed to sell, say Jazz Standard BIAB files that includes melody and lyrics? Is there not any method they can pay the royalties to sell such a product? If not, it seems a shame that in a format like BIAB, and as powerful as it is, that there is no way to legally sell copy-written material. Wouldn't this open up new revenue potential for the copyright owners?

I would like to purchase Jazz Standard or even Pop/Rock BIAB files legally and not have to bother with buying a second product like a book, that is not needed. These BIAB files would have to use top notch quality REAL tracks only for me to be really interested.

If there are people or companies out there legally selling BIAB files with melody and lyrics, (but expecially melody), a few links would be greatly appreciated.

Several posts mention Norton Music, but there are no melodies in their products.

I have followed this link, http://www.justchords.de/docs/biab/ , but don't believe these use REALTRACKS as the names are in 8.3 format; in other words, they are old and before the advent of REALTRACKS in BIAB. Just listening to a few of them, the quality leaves a lot to be desired. Sure, I could work on them and get them sounding better, but this is what I am trying to avoid.

Sorry for the long post,
Dan

Are you prepared to pay $300-500 for such a collection? Bob Norton said years ago he looked into paying the royalties so he could include melodies and it was over a dollar per song. The Real Books are over 400 songs each.

What we all do is simply scour the web for Biab songfiles. A lot of sites have been taken down due to threats of lawsuits but some are still around.

As for using old Biab songfiles with RT's that's no problem at all. All you is select a Real Track style and hit play. I think the oldest files I have are dated in the mid 90's. They play fine with Biab 2017, it's the styles that determine if it's midi or Real Tracks.

Oh, and don't fall into the old trap concerning cheezy sounding old files. That crap sound you hear is simply the synth you're using. PC's do not come with an expensive sound engine, they use a very small (read cheap like pennies) piece of software for sound. Play the same file with Sampletank 3 or a dedicated hardware synth and you'll be amazed at how good it is.

Bob

IMO them royalty meddling organizations are real criminal mafia businesses; as composer (mainly video, but some songs) a really get little money out of their looting ... F

I tried to do this legally, and it's impossible.

I went to the Harry Fox Agency (who represents the majority of the publishers) and to individual publishers who don't use the HFA.

The results were:

• It took up to 6 months to get an answer for each song file. (BiaB rights are not covered under any standard contract like mechanical rights are.)
• Many of the publishers just flat out said "No" to putting their melody or lyrics being put into Band-in-a-Box
• The publishers who said "Yes" wanted from $1.00 to $2.50 per song. Since that averages to $1.75 per song, and my fake disks usually have between 100 and 800 songs per disk, it means I'd have to charge from $175.00 to $1,400.00-US PER DISK in royalties alone. IF I could get the rights for all the songs (and I can't).
• The publishers also wanted me to prepay the royalties up front for up to 5,000 copies before I could sell the first file.

So I wrote to HFA about the high per-song price and told them I could buy a fake book for less than $0.10 per song, and the answer was "Buy the book."

So I create my files so you can load the song, open the book, and play the melody from the book while the song plays.

I input them in the same arrangement as the book, and in most cases don't use any BiaB repeats and tags so if you want to add an ad-lib solo, you can set the repeats yourself and extend the song.

Then I send them out to sub-contractors to pick the best style for the song from all the currently available styles for BiaB. If I did this myself, I'd favor my own styles because I know them best. So I tell the subcontractors not to favor my styles but to be as true to the music as possible. I also tell them if one of my styles and a PG style work equally as well, choose the PG style. (And I pay the subcontractors a piece of every disk I sell.)

Of course my fake disks are not disks anymore, When I started I sold them on 3.5" and 5.25" floppy disks. Then I moved to CD-R. Now that they are instant download, I still call them disks because I don't know what else to call them.

To answer your original question; If someone is selling song files in BiaB format for less then $5.00 PER SONG it is is definitely illegal ... and it's also illegal for you to purchase them ... {not that the odds of you getting caught buying them are great - but if you do, the penalty is severe).

In the USA if caught, it's up to $5,000 and 5 years in prison. For a business it's double that. That's why I took my lawyers advice, and I sell chord progressions only, since chord progressions cannot be copyrighted.

I think many of the publishers simply don't want to take the time to investigate BiaB so they either say "No" or price it arbitrarily too high to be practical to discourage anyone doing it.

Insights and incites by Notes

As a long-time user/player with BIAB, I’m not sure why anyone would want complete songs, with the melody included. I thought BIAB was a practice/learning tool, whereby the player would supply their own solo, melody, vocal, or whatever. Chord changes only, here.

Sorry, disagree, quite a few songs without melody included are missing the cream, especially if you want to learn something essential from them ... And as said, it stinks; the royalty - publishers circus is nothing better than a mob. This kind of profits-tearing is IMO just theft from composers and songwriters as they only get very small amounts of this looting. Time they should do away with this scamming business IMO. They're just as bad as the oil-bizz and bankers behave usually in our "society". Oohoohoo-oops, no politics LoL. -F

J. Larry,

Also being a long-time user, I am sorry to disagree with you that BIAB is only a “practice/learning tool” as it can be so much more.

For me it is:
1) “My band”, which I work with “real time”. It even makes it possible for me to sing “Four Freshmen”-style arrangements, all by myself!
2) Am also using it as an arranger (of mostly jazz tunes) and there a complete song with chords and melody is a very handy “starting point” of any arrangement (pop, folk or jazz).
3) Finally, I also use it to compose on and I can hear different chord progressions “in the flesh” as I work on them.

Hope this can be an “eye opener” to anyone with restricted view of the use of BIAB!
Brgds,
Tonnie

It's a Band, In a Box.

It should be considered flexibly to being able to deliver 'as much' or 'as little' as the end user requires.

We all have our own ways of using Band-in-a-Box.

When I bought it in the late 1980s or early 1990s it was nothing more than a practice tool for me. I would enter the chords and practice improvisation with my saxophone on unfamiliar songs to try out different ways of analyzing the chords and progressions. After all, the art of improv is to create and release tensions with the band, and without a band that's not easy to do.

Then BiaB came with the ability to write styles and since I thought BiaB's original 24 were missing a lot of styles, I wrote some of my own, shared them with friends, who encouraged me to take out an ad in Electronics Musician Magazine.

As BiaB grew in it's capabilities and as I grew in my style writing skills, I found it a great tool to practice and improve the arranging skills that I learned in school.

I still write styles, along with fake disks, but I also use it or at least parts of it to help me write backing tracks for my duo http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html

I love the MIDI harmony feature, so when making backing tracks, I can play in the top note of a horn or string line and let BiaB do the 'mule work' of adding the harmony parts. It almost always does that the way I learned it in school.

But I never-ever use it for melody (that doesn't mean it's wrong to do that). I want to play the melody myself. And I never-ever use those RealStyles where one instrument is overplaying (IMHO) and ends up stepping on the melody.

I never use the notation as anything but an aid in making styles, as I have a full-featured notation app that is more flexible.

There are plenty of other features I never use, but that doesn't mean others don't enjoy and get use out of them.

I'd love to be able to put the melodies in my fake disks. I'd play them in real-time with my wind controller and end up with a product that the melody seekers would like. Plus it would be fun to do. But the law says I can't do that without permission and permission is too costly for the customer base I have or think I could cultivate with this niche product, so I abide by the law.

And I have mixed feelings about the law. I feel that there should be a standard low charge for putting it in there (say $0.05 or so per song), and send the royalties to the publisher of each song to be shared with the composer. Of course, that would involve a lot of paperwork but in this day and age a computer could do all this with minimal effort on the part of the seller.

But that probably won't happen. It seems the industry would rather fight digital users than work with them. But then, I'm on the outside looking in.

There used to be a site that sold MIDI files of the Real Book with melodies, but it was shut down, I suspect by ASCAP or BMI and the owner probably got in big trouble.

BTW, I'm doing a fake disk for "The Real Book Sixth Edition" that should be out in my next release. I've been working on it for well over a year, trying to get the right styles and choosing which extensions to use when BiaB doesn't support an particular chord (and there are many in the Real Book). I'm on what I think is the final revision. It's been a labor of love but more time consuming than I figured to do it right. There will be no melodies or lyrics in it though.

My business has been audited by BMI twice and in the end they did not accuse me of doing anything wrong, so the lawyer fee I paid when I started my business was worth every penny when BMI came knocking at my door.

While I don't agree with the copyright laws, as a legitimate business owner, I have no ethical choice but to abide by them. In the two BMI audits since the early 1990s obeying the law proved to be the right thing to do.

Since BiaB is a niche of a niche product (musicians -> musicians who use computers -> musicians who use computers and use auto-accompaniment programs -> musicians who use computers who use auto-accompaniment programs and own Band-in-a-Box -> musicians who use computers who use auto-accompaniment programs and own Band-in-a-Box and want songs with melodies and lyrics included) perhaps the copyright people might do something standard like mechanical royalties, but I suspect there are so many niche of a niche apps out here that they don't feel it's worth their time and money to set that up. Of course that's just opinion as I said, I'm on the outside looking in.

So anyway if you find what you are looking for, it's probably not legal to sell it and not legal to buy the stolen merchandise. I wish it was not that way.

Insights and incites by Notes

In the couple of cases where I found a song with a melody in BIAB form on the Internet, I have noticed lots of errors and/or simplifications and it's faster for me to just transcribe it myself.

Much thanks for all your replies.

My goal would be to use BIAB to play live instrumental music, possibly saving the end file on mp3s and pdfs and use that to play with instead of BIAB itself.

I would follow the melody along for a chorus or two then solo over the changes for a while, etc. Although I have been playing a long time, I have not developed improvisation skills to a great extent, so displaying or printing the scales along with the melody would help with improvisation.

From your replies, I see there is no easy way to do this, like purchasing "one" product and using it. Looks like there is going to be some work involved in getting everything ready; not that I mind a great deal, but it it going to take some time.

One other alternative I am considering is purchasing Hal Leonard Playalong books with CDs. I have a friend who does this and likes it, although he doesn't play live with them.

I agree that the Music Industry is really behind the curve on digital formats. It seems absurd to me; all this for me to play in a venue that is already paying for Music copyrights to be played there anyway.

Thanks again,
Dan

I don't agree the music industry is behind on this particular digital issue, because this is one of the only areas where rampant piracy is discouraged. If you made a living writing music, you might agree with me.

I agree with Matt. Stop pirating and the copyrights would not be necessary.

Many of the younger generation think that music, among other things, should be free. Not me! I still buy CDs, vinyl and MP3s. The MP3s I usually burn to a disc. We have those values instilled in our kids and they also buy CDs and DVDs.

As a local music store's bumper sticker says "Support your local musicians"

Here, here!

STRONGLY agree with Matt and Mario and would think that ALL who make, or augment, their living with MUSIC (in any form) would "get it."

"Stuff" is NOT free, "stuff" represents someones labor or IP and it must be compensated for by consumer(s) of that labor or IP - unless said OWNER of "stuff" says it's free.

You may not like it and you may think the cost of "stuff" is too high but that is immaterial.

Larry

Agree with the above, however, the O/P never asked for anything free. This thread was never intended to be about free or pirated music. They were always prepared to pay, viz:

IMO that seems reasonable, although i feel composers get only 10% or less out of that, even if the charges are as high as 1.50%.

PS about where all this money travels:

My experience with producing a commercial CD with about 12 tracks the mechanical rights owner (CD production company) pays around $ 1.00 to 1.50 per printed CD in advance via the pressing plant for both copyrights AND mechanical rights.

Usually the studio musicians are paid already directly per recorded "side" or recorded track as they call it here. So if you play three instruments you're paid for 3 "sides" on the job.

Apart from that there is also a skimmed fee of .000x for the creative work per sold CD for the hired recording musicians. The company in the Netherlands doing that is called SENA. Been a member for maybe 20 years there since they started as backroom foundation; they now own a terrific chique office building, many employees plus luxury magazine. I have been doing a bit of studio work as fiddler and more over the years, especially in Germany, with all their organizing capabilities as i saw the forms to be sent in after both theater shows and recording studio work, but never got one single penny out of their looting.

BIAB's real track musicians actually are legally entitled here to the latter if their recordings, or even samples, end up on a commercial recording. F

Yes, you are correct however the thread took a turn to why is it so expensive to add melody lines. I was just adding to that part of the thread.

Me, too.

What is fake disks ?.

Presumably Norton's Music. Have a look here.