I feel as a musician and creator of music we all try to work from our heart. Our individual unique expressions and creations. My posts here are merely to encourage deeper thoughts and to hear others take and experience on certain topics. My posts are in no way to be critical of anyone or their efforts.
In my fist bias posts about instrumentals there were a few take aways from that for me.
1. There are great instrumentals that evoke emotions and are memorable and the title will contribute to the overall prosody of the song.
2. Good music can carry bad lyrics, but never the other way around. Good lyrics cannot carry a bad composition of music.
3. There are personal preferences of people who just enjoy instrumental music over more lyrical compositions. My husband was an alto sax player and he prefers really good instrumentals with the saxophone.
Saying that and as a lyricists my personal pet peeve #2 is about bad lyrics and not understanding what someone is trying to communicate in a song. Maybe it is too poetic or too personal feelings orientated. And I am sure I can sometimes be guilty of that also, but I hope to continue to learn to be clearer.
To learn to be a better songwriter we all have to write bad songs first and learn from them. Not every song will be successful and people's opinions and tastes will vary from what they like.
To date I have written about 270 songs and recently I have been trying to approach what I write a little differently as my learning continues.
1. When I come up with an idea or a topic, I first ask why might this be interesting to someone or to the audience? Would a lot of people be able to indentify with this song? If a song is too personal or maybe too unique, the majority of people may not relate to it.
2. Then I plot out my sequence in a logical pattern, what would be the story in the first verse and how will I follow that up in the 2nd verse in a sequential progression.
3. How will these relate back to my chorus or my hook? Everything in your song needs to relate to the main idea of the song.
4. If I have a bridge, how will that relate but be different, show a different perspective or have a conclusion.
5. I then start freewriting about my idea. I also start collecting imagery and metaphors that relate to my topic or story.
6. Then I start the song writing and the rhyme patterns. And the most important part revise and rewrite, maybe several times.
7. Then review my own song and try to be objective. Does it work? Does it say what I wanted in a way that others can relate and understand it? Does it show a lot and not just tell?
Anyway for others who write, I would be interested in what you do and how you approach it. I did listen to Floyd James excellent video on his approach and highly recommend others to watch it.
Your approach is the opposite of the way we approach it.
You say you have written 270 songs, but I think you are just writing lyrics? And good ones too, that is not intended as a put-down so please don't misunderstand.
But for me lyrics without music is a poem, not a song.
In our case most of the time I come up with the music first and send it off to my friend, who writes the lyrics and sings. So, I'll send her off a basic music bed that will have verses, chorus, maybe a bridge. As she listens to the music she develops the melody, and then writes the lyrics. The music may change as she is going through her creative process, she may want me to change the song structure, add a verse, bridge, etc.
Which shows there is more than one way to get the job done I guess.
Hi Dave, It's always great if you can find a talented creative person who complements what you do, and one that has the skills you may lack and can take it to the next level.
Of the 270 songs I have written, I have probably put a lot of them to music, I would say at least over half of them. Currently, I am really busy with my day job (I am a CPA) and will be for a couple of months, so I'm just writing lyrics for later when I have more time and will put some of them to music.
I am a much better lyric writer than I am a musician, but I do read music notation, play piano and guitar, and have studied theory. I can come up with a melody on the piano and write it out and I can come up with a chord progression. That's why I got BIAB, so I could do better musical compilations.
I've posted some of my lyrics here and have been very pleased with others compilations of them. They were all different from what I could have come up with.
Yes, you are correct in that lyrics without music is really a poem.
I haven't worked the way you all do it, but I do hope to try that someday soon and see how it goes.
These are the kind of subject I enjoy seeing. It truly demonstrates the subjective nature of music and songwriting.
Although no approach is objectively right, there will always be a right way for you.
I would say lyrics and music are interchangeable priorities depending on you and your personal taste/experience.
I would say that, "Good music can carry bad lyrics, but never the other way around. Good lyrics cannot carry a bad composition of music", could be up for debate. I would say something like rap, especially early 90's, was all about the lyrics. The beats were nice, but always secondary.
As always, we will continue to find new and exciting ways to express ourselves with music. Just stick with what works for you, and do the things you love.
I look forward to seeing others take on this in the comments below.
C-sharp when you cross the street… or you’re going to B-flat.
Thanks Mike for weighing in. There's an old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So I imagine in each genre of music there are different appreciations. Big bands and jazz are primarily instrumental, therefore lyrics don't really apply. I hadn't really considered rap as I've never listened to much of it, but it is primarily lyrics with a rhyming cadence. So no real melody per se and maybe even the lyrics don't have to be that good. Thinking about rap also led me to think about chanting, like Kirtan which is usually in Sanskrit, so most don't even understand the lyrics and the music is not really a melody. So, I'm glad I said my bias and in my case I was primarily talking about country and folk music where to me the lyrics are very important, but a good melody is maybe more so.
The below clip is from Britain's Got Talent 2014. It's two young guys who sing an original rap written by the younger one. It's a really worthwhile listen and gives some idea of just how versatile rap can be.
Then there's Eminem. He is a great study for anyone who likes to play with words...
Eminem's rhymes, his story telling, the way he uses words and how he employs the rap genre to empower his lyrics are all extraordinary. He has a highly developed understanding of how sonic links work with words.
In all of the 20+ weekend seminars of Pat Pattison that I've been to, he always recommends that students study rap so that they can develop lyric strategies that will take their writing to the proverbial 'next level'. Success in the rap genre relies very heavily on exceptional skills with words.
Wow, thanks Noel. Rap was one genre of sort of avoided because of sometimes bad language and violence. However, I did like one guy who did Christian rap and it was pretty cool. I'll have to look at it more and try to see the expertise in the lyrical prowess.
I don't necessarily agree. I think it is more the intention of the lyricist. Charles Wesley, the brother of John Wesley (who founded the Methodist church) is crediting with writing some 6000 hymns (songs, not poems). He did not write the music; however, most of the hymns were ultimately set to some tune (many times the same tune and other times, the same lyrics to different tunes).
I will agree that if the lyrics never get married up to the music, then yes, it's basically a poem, but again it goes to intent. Lyricists sit down to write songs, not poems. Poets sit down to write poems, not songs. Hopefully the lyrics will ultimately be applied to a melody, but when the words come first, that's what you have; just the words.
And I don't think anyone has ever called the songwriter Bernie Taupin a poet, even though he composed none of the music for Elton John's songs, only the lyrics, and is credited with being an excellent songwriter.
Maybe lyricist is the better term to use.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA
Wow, thanks Noel. Rap was one genre of sort of avoided because of sometimes bad language and violence. However, I did like one guy who did Christian rap and it was pretty cool. I'll have to look at it more and try to see the expertise in the lyrical prowess.
If you find an artist you like and concentrate on how the sounds of the words flow from line to line, I think you'll find it quite a valuable learning experience. I did.
Lyrics are poems that can be easily set to music. Donna's lyrics are a good example. They rhyme and there is a chorus/bridge/hook in them.
A poem cannot be easily set to music. I have a friend who wanted his poems set to music. It was impossible. Although they did rhyme there was no structure for music, i.e. no chorus/bridge/hook in them. I convinced him to do a Christian poem book instead of a Christian CD.
I approve this message. YMMV
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor. It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
John and Mario thanks for mentioning that intent of the writer matters. Yes, many poets probably do not think about their words being set to music, where a lyricist does. Good points!!
First of all, Good lyrics can be put to bad music (or poorly arranged) if the person doing the music is not skilled in what they are doing, or they don't understand the lyrical idea.
Second, all lyrics can be considered poetry but not all poetry can be considered lyrics. It takes a certain amount of form and structure for poetry to become lyrics to a song.
Lastly, there are many ways to come about writing a song. Some do lyrics first. Others do music first. For me the lyrics and chord structure seem to come hand in hand with most of my songs. I think they work better that way. I can also set someone else's lyrics to music quite easily if there is good form and structure to the lyrics but I find it harder to set lyrics to preexisting music. (That's not to say that I haven't done it but I just find it much harder.)
A poem cannot be easily set to music. I have a friend who wanted his poems set to music. It was impossible. Although they did rhyme there was no structure for music, i.e. no chorus/bridge/hook in them.
Yes, good point and I've been there too. 25 years or so ago I was asked by a poet to put her poems to music, she had heard that I was a musician that wrote music.
Almost no structure to them. Out of a book full of poems there was only one that I could make into a song, and even then I needed to restructure it somewhat. I still have the result on a cassette tape someplace I think.
Yeah, but Bob Dylan and many folk singers would never had existed w/o multiple verse only songs. To me it remains a great way to tell a rich story.
Of course as Janice says, maybe floyd did also, the words have to be “singable.” FWIW
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
To me it also seems that poems are more about feelings sometimes in a more abstract way. Words used are very flowery and descriptive or dark and many times without a plot or story line.
Song lyrics in many cases have a story to tell, a plot, a character, a setting, a conclusion or a moral to the story. Not in all cases, but in many cases, especially in country and folk music. A lot of Bob Dylan's songs were about characters and stories told through songs.
So here's a popular rock song with interesting lyrics that was a big hit. Does anyone know what the lyrics are really saying? Do the lyrics add anything to the song? Does it matter? The music was good.
Procol Harum - A Whiter Shade Of Pale Lyrics
We skipped a light fandango Turned cartwheels 'cross the floor I was feeling kinda seasick The crowd called out for more The room was humming harder As the ceiling flew away When we called out for another drink The waiter brought a tray
And so it was that later As the miller told his tale That her face, at first just ghostly Turned a whiter shade of pale
She said, "There is no reason And the truth is plain to see" But I wandered through my playing cards And would not let her be One of sixteen vestal virgins Who were leaving for the coast And although my eyes were open They might just as well have been closed
And so it was that later As the miller told his tale That her face, at first just ghostly Turned a whiter shade of pale
And so it was that later As the miller told his tale
According to Wikipedia, professional interpretations say the song is metaphorically about a sexual relationship.
According to Keith Reid, the principle writer of the lyrics, it was a straightforward, girl-leaves-boy story. He admits to being under the influence of drugs when the lyrical idea was conceived at a party but not when he actually wrote the lyrics. He states the lyrics were based on various books he'd read and been influenced by. There are two other verses to the song that were not included in the original recording because it extended the song for too long a length of time. Wikipedia claims it's rare, but the additional verses were sometimes included in live shows.
I'd never researched it before and had heard for many years the song was composed by Reid during a period when he was confined in a mental hospital.
According again to Wikipedia, the music is derived and influenced by Bach and oddly, "When a man loves a woman" by Percy Sledge.
Thanks Charlie for looking this song up in Wikipedia. I would have never came to this conclusion of the song from the words itself. Who's the miller they are talking about, telling his tale? What is the tale? You lose the listener when they are scratching their heads. Anyway, I find the words a little vague that could have added so much to the song. Maybe many people don't care if they like the song, but as a lyricist I find the communication of the words important.
In contrast, here's a song I love and I think the words speak for themselves. The melody to this song is extraordinary and I can't even imagine this song being an instrumental. It is an example of a perfect marriage between the lyrics and the music. Don't have to consult Wikipedia to understand this song. One of my favorites.
Turn the Page
On a long and lonesome highway East of Omaha You can listen to the engine Moaning out his one-note song You can think about the woman Or the girl you knew the night before
But your thoughts will soon be wanderin' The way they always do When you're riding sixteen hours And there's nothin' much to do And you don't feel much like riding You just wish the trip was through
Say, here I am On a road again There I am Up on a stage Here I go Playin' star again There I go Turn the page
Well you walk into a restaurant Strung out from the road And you feel the eyes upon you As you're shakin' off the cold You pretend it doesn't bother you But you just want to explode
Most times you can't hear 'em talk Other times you can All the same old clichés "Is that a woman or a man?" And you always seem outnumbered You don't dare make a stand
Here I am On a road again There I am Up on a stage Here I go Playin' star again There I go Turn the page
Out there in the spotlight You're a million miles away Every ounce of energy You try to give away As the sweat pours out your body Like the music that you play (Sax solo)
Later in the evening As you lie awake in bed With the echoes from the amplifiers Ringin' in your head You smoke the day's last cigarette Remembering what she said
Ah, here I am On a road again There I am Up on a stage Here I go Playin' star again There I go Turn the page Ah, here I am On a road again There I am Up on a stage Here I go Playin star again There I go There I go
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
Playable RealTracks Set 4
RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday, and 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST Saturday. We are closed Sunday. You can also send us your questions via email.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean