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Quote:
Some of the older MIDI styles I use have specific drum parts in them that match the style well. So I may elect to use those instead. Don't overlook the MIDI "Live Drums" styles too, where a live drummer played a MIDI set for the recording and making of the target styles. For jazz work, I greatly prefer the RealDrums, though.
MIDI drums and a great MIDI synth still have a place in this world, too.
Use what you like. Use what works for each instance.
--Mac
Mac: after reading this, I went to the 2007 manual and did a word search on 'live drums'. Everything that came up was about m a k i n g styles and patterns.
Do the styles you're referring to have a naming convention, so you can pick them out ? Or is finding them just serendipity ?
Ian G.
Late-developing enthusiast for jazz / blues. Principally pianist
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Hi Ian,
I think you will find that "Live Drums" is definately a feature/term that Notes Norton has in his excellent styles for BIAB - they are much looser than grid patterns and give a "human" feel
Something similar applies to BIAB and can be found in the Style Wizard more dialog in Help > Topics
jazzman
BIAB - RealBand - 2022
Windows 10 64
Zoo computer with 7i processor- SSD 1TB -2TB HDD
Roland keyboards
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It used to be that BIAB MIDI drums were limited to a 16th note grid, period. And the drum part could only play exactly on that 16th note boundary. That made the drums pretty mechanical sounding over time.
Live Drums (in the context of BIAB) was a feature whereby the drum patterns for styles could be imported from a MIDI file (that might have been played by a drummer using a MIDI-enabled drum set). That way, you can capture the nuances of the performance, as well as allowing for greater than 16th note resolution. That's why you see it in the section on styles and style-making.
You can still create styles on the grid, by the way, so you now have the option of both methods of entering drum patterns into styles.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Don't forget the most powerful part of RealDrums. You can roll your own. It's not that hard. There are some great drum loop discs out there with all the variation you'll ever need. Get those, read the tutorial on how to do it and voila!!
There's a disc Sony I think of all Mick Fleetwood.
Remember that RealDrums is really just a real sophisticated loop player.When you make the .txt file for your new RD style you have the same tools available as for a midi drum part.
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Quote:
<...>The midi bass and drums are a little too "sterile" for My Purposes. Later, Ray
Personally, I think that is style dependent. Too many styles are quantized and/or step entered, and for my tastes, they are also too sterile.
But a well written style, with the instruments played into a MIDI sequencer in real time, and NOT using the drum grid (but instead, "live drums") you can get a fantastic groove going with the MIDI instruments.
I never step enter when I make my styles but instead play the parts live into a sequencer and then extract parts to make styles. That gives the style a live feel. Ever since PG introduced "Live Drums" all my drum tracks are played the same way.
Plus with MIDI you can dump the BiaB output into a sequencer and have song specific figures, kicks, holds, accelerandos, ritardandos, and real held chords. Many of these effects take a bland non-arrangement (even in Jazz) and turn it into a real arrangement.
For the way I play, these and other effects are necessary and take us from sounding like bland arrangements to special arrangements.
Even jazz songs need these, a few off the top of my head that don't sound right without either kicks or song specific parts, "Don't Get Around Much Anymore" (Ellington), "Well You Needn't" (Monk), "Confirmation" (Parker), "Stolen Moments" (Nelson), "Autumn Leaves" (various), "So What" (Davis), and hundreds of others. Without the rhythmic and/or counter-melodic figures these songs sound bland even if played by high-caliber live musicians.
But we each have our own way of doing things, each system has their pros and cons, and there is more than one right way to do anything.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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And also consider the MIDi sound source you are using.
A better MIDI synth can make a lot of difference in what the MIDI drums sound like.
Thye inverse applies as well, a lesser MIDI synth is likely to sound not so good, or even "cheezy" as we used to say about the early MIDI FM synths.
Ian, I don't know where in the BIAB literature, such that it is, where you might find out more about those Live Drums styles, but I do remember that it was once one of the 50 new features. Can't recall which version it was now, though.
--Mac
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Quote:
(...)
Remember that RealDrums is really just a real sophisticated loop player.(...)
And that is what I don't like about it. With a loop player you are stuck with the loop someone else played and it cannot be extensively edited.
Besides for kicks and shots, what if you want to eliminate the tambourine, or change the hi-hat to the bell of a ride cymbal, or change the snare to a piccolo snare or brushed snare, or change the picked bass to a fretless bass, or play that grand piano on a soft Rhodes, or add sustain to a choppy rhythm comp, etc., etc,. etc.?
What if you want to slightly change a part in the loop. Say change the sax part just a little? You would need the same sax/mouthpiece/reed combination, the same microphone, the same acoustic room, and the same gear used to record the original, and even then it would take a lot of messing around with the eq and fx settings to make it sound the same.
To me using loops to make a song is like a visual artist doing a collage. While using editable MIDI parts is like a visual artist doing an oil painting. With the collage you are simply pasting what others have done. With the oil painting you have complete control, even if you are working from life (for example, doing a portrait you can get rid of zits, fix the disturbing things in the background, enhance desirable features and minimize undesirable ones, etc.).
I want complete control of the end product. If I can imagine a way to improve it, and if I have the skills to do so, I'll spend the extra time on a song to do so. Some of the backing tracks I write for my duo The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com take 16-24 hours to complete, but it is worth it. I may take a couple of days to make the backing track, but I'll play that backing track thousands of times. And if there is anything I can do to make it sound better for the audience or make it more fun to play on stage, the initial time is well worth it.
I do the same for the styles I write. And as I have progressed in my style writing skills, and as the features in the BiaB stylemaker have improved, my styles have gotten better.
I use an array of sound modules, taking the best sounds from about a half dozen synths and samplers. The result is we are the highest paid duo in the area and we have consistent work. Music is all I do for a living (gigging and my part-time moonlighting job doing BiaB sttyles). If I didn't work so hard on my product, I don't think I could make a living playing music.
In summary, I have nothing against collages, but I don't want to be limited by what somebody else has done in their loop. I want to express my own ideas, and modify other people's ideas to make them my own.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
<...>lesser MIDI synth is likely to sound not so good, or even "cheezy" as we used to say about the early MIDI FM synths. <...>
--Mac
Exactly.
And yet, some of the old FM sounds are still great (IMHO mostly the melodic percussion sounds).
And each synth has it's own good sounds and it's own not-so-good sounds, no matter how much it costs. For example, my Edirol SD90 does not have a good acoustic bass sound, but my Korg i3 has an acoustic bass that sounds so good you can hear the wood vibrate. No synth module I have has a good fingered electric bass sound (they are all too harsh) so I strung up my Japanese Faux-Fender-Jazz-Bass with flat wound strings and sampled it. My Yamaha VL70-m uses physical modeling and can capture the nuances of a sax, trumpet or trombone player. So I pick and choose from an array of sound modules taking what I think are the best sounds of each for every instrument in the song I am playing.
Probably the best selling feature for RealTracks is all the computer sound cards I have ever heard have had a cheezy synth chip. They seem to do well in converting digital audio to analog audio, but they cut corners by saving money on the MIDI synth. I guess the figure the general public doesn't do MIDI so it is a good place to save money and make the price of the card competitive. I've heard the Kurzweil, Ketron and a few others sound great, but with my array of hardware synths, I have no need to spend the money on them. However, if I didn't have the synths I've collected through the years, I'd definitely get one.
And most low to mid priced General MIDI soft synths cut corners to save CPU cycles to cut the latency down on the average computer. For example, most of the sounds in the newest edition of the Roland Virtual Sound Canvas doesn't sound as good to my ears as the hardware SC55 Sound Canvas I purchased 20 or so years ago.
I don't mind practicing with the cheezy sounds in my computer sound card or the VSC, but I would never-ever bring those sounds on stage with me. Instead I'll use the best sounds for the song in my half-dozen synths (or synth modules) and my two hardware samplers.
In the end, I'll have instruments that sound for all practical purposes as good as the RealTracks, and the expressive nuances I can insert into the music will more than make up for any tonal shortcomings.
And while I'm at it, what is good tone anyway? Each instrument has it's own range of tones. Is good guitar tone Hendrix? Page? Beck? Montgomery? Smith? Ellis? Parkening? Clapton? Metheny? Van Halen? or any of the other variations?
To me capturing the nuances of the instrument being played does more than capturing perfect tone. But that's another post.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Hi Mac,
This one had my memory fooled as well
The "live" drums in BIAB appear to apply only to a Midi file drum track and the only text I can find is in Help > Topics -
"Style Wizard More Dialog
This dialog is launched from the [More…] button in the Style Creation Wizard (Styles | Style Wizard (Auto-Create Style from MIDI file)".
There is a dropdown box which gives you the option
jazzman
BIAB - RealBand - 2022
Windows 10 64
Zoo computer with 7i processor- SSD 1TB -2TB HDD
Roland keyboards
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MIDI samples with fixed ADSR. How ya gonna do slurs, hammerons or pulloffs with that? Not to mention the virtual myriad of other more subtle things that an accomplished player of any instrument can do? That includes Percussion instruments. Three, four or even six Velocity Layers can't cut it, although more is better for helping create illusions. Let's face it, ANY of the currently available artificial solutions consist of tradeoffs, be they MIDI based, Loop based, "RealTracks" based or the like. Realtracks does solve the ADSR problem, though, which is a biggie IMO. The tradeoffs are rather obvious. I view all of this as the creation of illusion -- simply because it is the only possible outcome given the inputs available. Be pragmatic about it. Do what you can do, not what you wish it could do or frustration levels will be higher than the whole thing is worth. IF you can't live with the artificial solutions available today, the alternative is easy enough: find real talent and record them. If you don't know what that is like firsthand, try standing in a cold shower fully dressed while ripping up hundred dollar bills for starters.  --Mac
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.
On one song the REALDRUMS snare and congas were sounding great. I needed something on 1 and 3 to get a more danceable effect. I added MIDI bassdrum on 1 & 3. Not even loud enough to actually hear - just a bit of thump to support what the other drummers were already doing. Worked great, I think.
...But you need Real Band to have multiple tracks like this.
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Flatfoot,
I've done that on all of my songs. Added the kick to coninside with my (bass) playing. I use 9 different BIAB styles that only have kick drum and use the add midi part.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
MIDI samples with fixed ADSR.
How ya gonna do slurs, hammerons or pulloffs with that?
Not to mention the virtual myriad of other more subtle things that an accomplished player of any instrument can do? That includes Percussion instruments. Three, four or even six Velocity Layers can't cut it, although more is better for helping create illusions. (...)
The best synth I have found for that is the Yamaha VL70-m. It does hammerons, pulloffs on the guitar patch, on the sax patch the tone changes with the pitch bend, it does flutter tongue and throat growl, it does lip slurs on the brass instruments, and many other nuances that acoustic and acoustic-electric instrumentalists do. It uses physical modeling synthesis and doesn't have the ADSR envelope that most synths have. Instead it has computer models of reeds, plucked strings, bowed strings, cup mouthpieces, various tubes and boxes, and various dampers like bridges and bells. It uses the MIDI velocity and various continuous controllers to recreate what I think is the best representation of an acoustic or acoustic-electric instrument. I have a couple of clips at http://www.nortonmusic.com/clips.html
The only problem is that it only plays one note at a time (I have two modules).
But I agree the average synth can not do all these things. Some have a legato mode and that will do hammerons, pulloffs, and wind instrument slurs, and some of the other nuances can be coaxed with intelligent use of the continuous controllers, but they still fall short a bit. On the other hand, IMHO their editability more than makes up for any shortcomings in their expressive capabilities, especially for background parts.
I tend to use my array of MIDI modules for the background parts and save the VL70-m modules for the melody parts.
I feel I can get a much better music by editing the MIDI parts than I can by using RTs. However, if I wasn't going to do any editing, perhaps I'd settle for the RTs.
But as I said before, it is good that PG has both, that way each of us can make music in our own way, the way that is best for each of us as an individual.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I listened to your rendition of Teach My Tonight. Very nice. Great stuff.
Mike (vibeman) drums &vibes
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Thanks Mike . . . and that was Mario doing the guitar solos.
Later,
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi All,
Just to add my 10 cents worth.
I went to jazz concerts on two successive Sundays recently. Same band each
time but a different drummer. Both drummers were fine but the sounds they
produced were quite different. So with the real thing they don't all sound the
same either.
Incidentally, the reason for the dep at the second concert was that the first
drummer was in hospital having a pacemaker fitted - one of his band colleagues
unkindly suggested that at least he would be able to keep time in future.
Ken
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Use the KISS theory... If the sound doesn't "velosophize" good enuff....try to incorporate one of these. And use the IPOD rather than a computer at your next gig!! http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2009/1...for-the-iphone/
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
MIDI
IF you can't live with the artificial solutions available today, the alternative is easy enough: find real talent and record them. If you don't know what that is like firsthand, try standing in a cold shower fully dressed while ripping up hundred dollar bills for starters.
--Mac
That comment has made my day Mac. I had a good belly laugh. I love your sense of "dry" humour
What I would say be happy with what BIB CAN do at the moment ( a hell of a lot) and look forward to new inovations over time.
Cheers
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