Hi all, well I am a little concerned at the moment with my recent purchase of BnB.
It appears that it may not do what I was informed it could do. I had a specific list. In addition I was in a chat session that didnt go well, partly due to what I was told BnB could do.
Perhaps it can, but I cant get seem to get a straight answer.
Im a Sax player/ arranger for the music I like to play. Im not a piano player nor do I want to be. I use a piano to tune with...surprisingly dont use it as often for doing arrangements. I hate pianos...ok there I said it.
My concerns, 1. I want to replace flakey, alcoholic, drug addicted band members and replace them with BnB. Im a Sax player typical combo group, jazz and top 40 stuff. All the gigs are paid triple scale. So these are good gigs. When people request a song or hear music from our group they want to hear it as it sounds or was arranged in the original recordings. Not a fakebook bowling alley lounge version of them. So I transcribe all the music and arrange as nessecary for whomever is sober enough to play.
I was informed directly by sales that I could do the following.
1. Write the music out note for note per instrument, assigned to appropriate instrument to which I could play alone with my new digital band and lose the losers that im bailing out of jail weekly.
It appears this is not even close to doable although I should admit Im not completly up to speed yet. My main gig during the day is a software developer... Programmer... So im tech savvy.
As it appears this is nothing more than a fakebook adlib teaching tool?
The real tracks sound great but dont seem to have any use but for typical fakebook adlib. The CoyoteWT VST, if you want to call it that sounds like Caliope instruments with no ability or tools to effect phrasing (breath) control amongst other issues.
Simple program HARDWARE requirements, suggestions, best practices, and more importantly a function flow chart non which seem to exist.
After spending a couple of months learning I had questions using typical house sound or pa systems. IE: ...this is where workflow and instruction is needed... I was informed that you connect from the stereo output of ypur sound card to the pa system or sound card. Which is great IF YOU ONLY USE REAL TRACKS.
I say this as I was also told to use the same output when using the CoyoteWT VST, which is horrific. This confused me greatly as I was hearing what was coming out from my arrangements in midi format was utter horror. I thought I must need a processor to properly process the coyotewt, maybe a workstation or keyboard perhaps? I was still told no...speaker output is fine even after explaining caliope sounds.
The confusion on my part is due to assumptions. Real Tracks sound fantastic. These are sampled instruments sounds being played in a specific fakebook format... You might consider them Real Instrument Fakebook VST's.
Since they sounded so great I assumed the quality of the midi VST Would be comparable, especially with the cost if the audiophile version.
Since the midi side of things sounded so horrible I thought for sure I was missing some sort of needed workstation hardware? To which thier is no info on hardware or workstations, VST's, recommendations, and no workflow for external hardware.
So an hour or so of time in chat and on the phone yielded the response that the Coyote VST is free...in other words a severely low quality instrument VST with a high quality (Real Tracks). This is the reason for my confusion.
Now I need to figure out if this is even salvagable.
I cant write music with Real Tracks as I was lead to believe. Surely cant do it with Coyotewt.
So I have to dump another close to 2k for Komplete 12 VST. Which would give me real instrument sampled high quality to write and arrange note for note.
Might anyone have any other suggestions for real sampled instrument VST comparable to Komplete?
At this point is BnB useful for anything? Writing, arranging, printing and performing live?
Or should I use Komplete with Ableton Live?
My sincerest appologies for rambling and probably clueless.
Wow, you got a lot of questions. I can't address everything, but let me first ask, is your 30 days money back time period?? Cause you may be a candidate for returning the product.
You are generally making correct statements through out your missive. You appear to understand the audio recording nature of the RT's. They play what they have recorded, not notes that you tell them to play. You give them the chords and they jam - like a fake book.
But your thoughts on the Midi side are a bit vague. BIAB has no midi sound module of its own. You do need a good sounding midi sound generator. CoyoteWT VST ain't it as you have now discovered.
BIAB produces background accompaniment to your playing or to melodies which you input for midi playback. It will not play covers as you hear them on the radio. For that you need a lot of midi programming and some high end midi sound modules.
Just my 2 cents for now, lets see what others have to offer.
Yes you will have to use a high quality virtual instrument player like Kontakt. Have a look at www.RapidComposer.com it can work as a standalone app or vst, you can load Kontakt into it and have an articulation set for each instrument, this allows you to right click a note and add any articulation to it. The phases can be saved then dragged and dropped onto any chord or scale fitting automatically. There is a Coyote Forte DXi that has a lot better quality than the standard version but if you already have Kontakt that is the way to go.
Real Tracks (RT) in Real Band (RB) are not easy to customize.
However, if you use MIDI, I would suggest only using Coyote to do your composing. Once you have the tracks right, you can load a high quality synth..... or simply start in a DAW, load in some high quality samples and go from square one. I do this.... and have BB running with RB and use them to add other tracks.
RB is EXCELLENT if you have a track that can afford to simply play something loose. I'm a country guy, so fiddle fills, mandolins, steel guitar leads and background, bass and piano as well as drums all tend to work very well coming straight from RB/RT.
For many songs, it is totally possible to use Band in a Box (BB) to compose music. Lots of songs are fairly generic when it comes to bass and drum tracks...and BB/RB will do a decent job with them. I'd put Creedence Clearwater.... Lodi, Who'll stop the rain, etc.... into this category. BB/RB will give you very good bass and drums, and you add the guitar parts. Since you play sax, you have to decide what parts are good enough to pass muster in the jazz top 40 genre.
However, if the song is one of the songs that has signature licks and riffs that are part and parcel to the identity of the song, think the Sax in Baker Street, or the riffs to Southern Nights, or any of a hundred other songs......you will need to play those with midi and then use a high quality synth like Kontakt from Native Instruments to play the samples. Problem is that the guitar synths are tricky to learn and get to sound good. It's a whole discipline unto itself to learn how to do a guitar synth right. Piano is easy to get sounding good.... as long as you can play halfway decently. I'd hate to attempt some of those Billy Joel or Herbie Hancock songs on the keys with my skill set.
Short story: A certain fellow hired me to do the backing tracks for Southern Nights. The old Glen Campbell song. But he didn't want GC's version. It was a totally different feel and groove to that song with similar riffs. I ended up using a few tracks from BB/RB ... the RT's and for the remainder, I had to go to Sonar where I like to work anyway, and use both live guitar as well as Midi with Kontakt samples to get the song in the groove he wanted. It did not sound like a generic version at all and he was highly impressed with the result.
In another instance, I saw a band that is what you describe yourself as doing. High dollar gig, high quality clientele in a swanky bar. They had 2 live players.... bass and guitar and both sang. Everything else was midi and sampled. I spoke with them and they said it takes them several days to a week to put a song together. Part by part.... all midi. The parts were exact replicas to the original as recorded by the artists of the songs.
So....as I see it... you have a good product that can save you a lot of time on some of the songs.... but to get those signature licks, you're going to have to think out of the box a bit to get things done.
If all else fails, there is a 30 day full refund available. Get a good DAW and invest in Kontakt and it's doable......
I feel your pain regarding the loser, drug addicted, flaky players. Been there.... done that.... love my current studio band. BB/RB
Feel free to ask more questions..... we're willing to see if we can provide some answers.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/22/1802:01 PM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I used BIAB as the sole backing for my one man gigs where I handle guitar and vocals and BIAB all else. My genre was Jazz from the great american song book. So, fake book stuff. BIAB is well suited for this play book since no one is looking for signature licks and I was free to improvise just like BIAB over the chord structures.
That was 15 - 20 years ago. Since then I have moved onward and upward and I don't use BIAB for live gigs any longer. But it is still where all my music starts.
Wow, thank you all for the input. It explains a lot. It also explains my knowledge and expectations are wrong and I appear to be clueless.
So, I guess my next comment/questions should be....?
1. Regarding the VST's, it appears that most everyone in the professional music production business uses Komplete for thier VST. Very pricey and im not sure or really havent seen anything that is comparable to ultra quality sampled instruments... Is there anything comparable that is more affordable with same quality?
2. The other issue is I have been classically trained... Not properly trained by ear only and purposely not to read music. I have always envied the ones who play without the need to read music. This is where im a little stuck. Now what? I am pass the point of returning product... Which is fine... Its a good product and worth it.
I write music for all the parts and I always read the music or its within my sight while playing.
So Im guessing I need something different. I dont know enough about whats on the market for what I need to do. It looks like you all do. So here goes.
I need a way to write and arrange music for each part using Komplete as my VST, Dan as you mentioned... Exactly as the original was produced. I need a program that allows me to write and play for each part so I have a backing band, and also print the sheet music if I need to hire guys. Again I was lead to believe from sales that bnb could do this... But not even close or I havent learned how to do it..yet.
I think all of you understand more than I do what I am trying to do. Is there a professional program cabable of doing this without having to purchase 20 different programs? (Which is another annoyance similar to scratching a chalkboard) Some of these other musicians start talking about... Well I use program A. For underwater basket weaving and program B. for underwater BB stacking... And there free programs!!!! Bka bla bla... Ideally I would like one and done. High quality music production using Komplete vst's.
I have a full big band arrangement of sweet georgia brown.. Sammy Nestico arrangement. I want to take every single parts sheet music and input it in a program note for note. Assign the correct midi instrument. Massage the phrasing, timing, etc... Then play it back as a live backing band behind me.... Does anything exist that can do this... It cant be this difficult? I have repeated this many times to sales and I can only guess I wasnt crystal clear the 80th time I repeated it.
I dont have a use for Fakebook musical instrument kareoke. I want note for note for each instrument as the originals. Thats what people expect to hear from me...
Again, I hope Im just completely clueless and the info that you have all provided me has cleared up gobs of questions and issues... Now I just need to figure out where to go from here.
Additional thoughts... I would prefer to work and build a midi song file by using proper music notation, time signatures, keys, etc. Most of the midi programs I have seen dont have this capability. They simply record what you PLAY in to them... I dont play piano so I cant input it into midi this way. I have to write it in through music notation...
Since you do all the arranging yourself, it sounds to me like you need a DAW environment that can work easily with MIDI VSTs and notation.
BIAB is a backing generator. As you point out, it's more akin to an ensemble working from fakebooks rather than having the ability to reproduce existing productions.
As Musicstudent mentioned, PG Music offer a 30-day money-back guarantee on their products. It seems like this might be something that you need to take advantage of.
... Since they [RealTracks] sounded so great I assumed the quality of the midi VST Would be comparable, especially with the cost if the audiophile version.
MIDI of course is 'data' and needs a sound module to convert that data to audio.
RealTracks are Audio and the Audiophile version has higher quality Audio, but that quality has no bearing on anything related to MIDI at all.
So MIDI is only going to sound as good as the quality of your sound module. As a woodwind player, you also create articulations that existing MIDI data may or may not have.
Some members here record their own MIDI data using a MIDI Wind Controller with excellent results.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
RatFink, I see you mention Native Instruments Komplete several times. You're right, very pricey! But I do think that samplers are the way for you to go taking into the account that you want the best most realistic sounds you can get. Synths can only get you so far unless you really get into synth programming and get into something like physical modeling synthesis. That in itself is a deep dive, just stick with samplers.
I think that you might be able to save quite a bit of money and get closer to what you want if you just get Native Instruments Kontakt. This is just their sampler without all the other synths, effects, etc. Komplete, in its base from, runs $600 whereas Kontakt runs $200 on sale right now.
I do find Kontakt a bit more involved to work with as compared to another well known sampler: IK Multimedia Sampletank 3 also on sale now for $200.
Note that both are 64 bit apps, so you will need a computer capable of that or will need to use a 32 bit to 64 bit bridge like J-Bridge.
Both Kontakt and Sampletank have free trial versions available. So download both and give them a try.
1. Regarding the VST's, it appears that most everyone in the professional music production business uses Komplete for thier VST. Very pricey and im not sure or really havent seen anything that is comparable to ultra quality sampled instruments... Is there anything comparable that is more affordable with same quality?
2. The other issue is I have been classically trained... Not properly trained by ear only and purposely not to read music. I have always envied the ones who play without the need to read music. This is where im a little stuck. Now what? I am pass the point of returning product... Which is fine... Its a good product and worth it.
1. Not really. Kontakt is what is referred to by many in the music production business as the lower end of the professional synths. In essence, you can use Kontakt synths to do production work for film and TV without having to worry that the end user will turn your music down for using a cheap sounding synth. It's not too hard to find samples and synths that are thousands of dollars. Kontakt is a good balance of quality sound and affordability. A lot of folks here use SFZ and sound fonts. These are a step up from the Coyote and TTS synths that are defaults for BB/RB. But they still lack that quality you're going to get in the synths and samples like Kontakt.
My recommendation is to look for online deals on Kontakt.... and this is the perfect time to be looking. Christmas specials are popping up all over.
2. I could never understand how someone could set down to a piece of sheet music in C# that they had never heard before and read it and play it like they knew it for years, but then have someone say to them, lets jam a 1,4,5 in the key of C major and get blank states in return. However, I have seen this multiple times from church piano players..... so apparently this is a real thing.
I studied piano and music and can identify the notes, but play it by sight reading....? Not on your life. But, throw down a jam in any key and I'm there and leading the way. They look at me and say, wow, how do you do that without sheet music?
So.... it's an acquired skill, just like reading. Since you have a good understanding of scales and theory from reading, it's not a major undertaking to learn to play by ear.
Step one: Can you memorize a song that you had to sight read?
Step two: Just for grins, play back the backing tracks to a song you know.... BUT... no sheet music. One the solo and fills, just insert something new. Doesn't matter if you screw it up.... go back and do it again...... and again...... and again.... until it becomes natural.
I learned to play by ear by putting records on and playing along.... over and over. Then, I started doing it to the songs on the radio. Learn the 1,4,5 progression and you have 98% of the popular songs done.
Playing by sight is like precision work. Playing by ear is like freedom and fun.
Quote:
I have a full big band arrangement of sweet georgia brown.. Sammy Nestico arrangement. I want to take every single parts sheet music and input it in a program note for note. Assign the correct midi instrument. Massage the phrasing, timing, etc... Then play it back as a live backing band behind me.... Does anything exist that can do this... It cant be this difficult? I have repeated this many times to sales and I can only guess I wasnt crystal clear the 80th time I repeated it.
So yeah.... Get a DAW like Sonar and you can have as many tracks and synths running as you need to do this. I have seen people do some amazing full orchestral productions of classical stuff.... Beethoven kind of music.... in a DAW with over a hundred tracks, each with a different sample.... and it's absolutely amazing. A big band is what, maybe 24 tracks? Easy to do in a good DAW and using something like Kontakt. BTW: go to the Native Instruments web site. They have smaller packages for folks who might only want horns,,,,, or strings,,,,, or piano. Check it out and get what you need. All of their stuff is good quality that you will like. Kontakt is the big flagship synth and well worth the cost, but they do have smaller and less expensive stuff that might suit the job you need, better.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 11/23/1803:39 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
I'm late getting here and you have received a lot of good information. For example you will need a DAW that allows manuscript editing so DL demos of DAWs and pick the one that fits your workflow.
Also Kontakt has been mentioned and I highly suggest that you get it. There are many third party companies writing excellent patches/sounds for it. Plus it is programmable if you want to get that deep into it.
Musescore has been mentioned and again I suggest that you get this freebe.
If you are looking to do exact covers you can input the notes in either a DAW or Musescore. Or you can google/bing songtitle MIDI, find a good rendition (note some are free and some are not free), bring it into a DAW and adjust if needed and play along with it.
Good luck.
PS - with MIDI sounds the more you pay the better the sound. The free MIDI sound source that comes with BiaB is at the bottom of the sound list IMHO. It is only good for MIDI scratch songs and not for anything else, like playing out. YMMV
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia. She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
You asked this: "At this point is BnB useful for anything? Writing, arranging, printing and performing live?"
I'm a pro player and use BIAB for three and a half of this four. I start composing in BIAB (because the data entry by mouse is so great, best in the industry), use it for arranging in conjunction with my music notation software, print drafts of notation (that's the half) and output the notation by MIDI to my music notation program where I enhance it, and perform live to the backing tracks (mostly RealTracks; I play what would have been MIDI melody). To do these things, I use BIAB in addition to other software.
Reading your initial post, I think that your main stumbling block is two things: understanding the difference between how audio and MIDI are used in BIAB, and getting a much better MIDI synth to play the MIDI. You have received excellent advice above on both these points. Let us know if anything is unclear.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
I would suggest taking a look at the Presonus bundle with Studio One and Notion. Notion will give you your notation needs and can integrate pretty nicely into Studio One (so changes made in Notion will be reflected in your DAW mix. That way, you can write exactly what you want to hear and easily see what's going on as the creative process progresses.
BIAB is a great tool for backing tracks, but it is not a "cover band transcription tool". You might get something similar to what you hear on the radio, but there is no button to "create a song that sounds exactly like whatever". For me, that's exactly what I want, because I want it to retain some flavor of the original, but still want it to be mine. If not, then I'll just listen to the CD since it's already been done. But you know your audience and if that's what they want, that's cool. BIAB probably won't get you where you need to be.
Regardless of whether you use BIAB or not, you'll still need an arsenal of good sounding VSTi's, especially if you want to sound like the original bands. It won't be one size fits all, in that case.
There are a lot of good VSTi's out there (some even free or low cost; others in the thousands). Each one of them will require a learning curve, because they all behave differently. You may not like piano, but using VSTi's is going to put you in front of at least a piano roll view for MIDI, so I'd suggest getting more familiar with the piano, whether you do it playing on a keyboard or clicking on a screen. You'll need to understand key switching, various ranges on the keyboard that do different things, and each one is going to be different. A lot of work, but in the end, a satisfying sound.
John
Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA
Ya, the more I think about this and read the comments I realize you are jumping into the deep end of the pool. BIAB and the RT's should be able to provide some of the heavy lifting you are going to need, otherwise it is just going to take a lot of time and the right tools. But I wish you all the luck. Stay in touch so we see how you progress.
With MuseScore you can set the midiOut to LoopMidi in Reaper you load Kontakt in a track and in Preferences > Midi Devices > midiIn enable LoopMidi then set the track midiIn to LoopMidi, in Reaper Preferences > Audio uncheck Close audio device. You can also use Kontakt Standalone set to LoopMidi IN.
I'd like to echo Matt's comment about note entry in BiaB - it's quite good. Make sure you've tried it out before dismissing it as a way of entering sound in. You can always export the MIDI to a DAW at the end of the day, but as a tool for getting the music into the computer, it may work well for you.
There are other VSTi other than Kontakt, but Kontakt really is the industry standard. However, depending on what sort of instruments you need, you may have to purchase separate sound libraries above what you get in Komplete, and learn to program those as well.
At the end of the day, you're just creating audio tracks. With every track that you create, you'll have to decide how closely to the original you're going to stay.
You're in a live band, so you know that live versions aren't exactly the same as the recorded versions. So you may very well be able to get close enough with the bass and drum parts with BiaB.
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