I have done 2 original songs using BIAB for laying out the arrangement and playing instruments I don't play......also about 15 cover songs. Never really struggled much.
I have a new original that has me pulling my hair out hehe. I have to say I'm slightly familiar with basic theory but certainly not a master by any stretch of the imagination.
Here's what I've tried. I recorded an acoustic guitar track for the intro, 1st verse and chorus in Cubase. I did not use a click track because honestly I had no idea of the tempo. I took the file into RiffStation and Melodyne to get an idea of the tempo and time signature (again this is something I'm not good at without assistance). Both indicated tempo between 102 and 110. And a time signature of 3/4.
I then imported the audio in BIAB and used ACW to try and get the layout (excuse if I'm using improper terminology). My inexperience with ACW made that not turn out well at all, had tempos all over the place sounding nothing like the audio once in the chord chart.
Then I tried from scratch the way I did previous songs. After 3 hours still no joy. I just can't create the proper feel for the song. I'm sure this is user error or ignorance.
This a rather simple song in the style of Kris Kristofferson. I'm not sure if I'm mixing 3/4 and 4/4 time and that's causing me to struggle?
So......any suggestions on something I haven't tried yet or tips on how figure this out? Even if I have to rerecord using a click track......although Melodyne shows I'm not wildly changing tempo.
Any help would be appreciated before I have no hair left hahaha.
Thanks Mike
Focusrite 2i2 2nd Gen Windows 10 pro 1709 16299.125 Intel core i7 6700k CPU @ 4.00GHz 4.01 GHz 16 gig memory BIAB UltraPak version is 2025 (Latest) Cubase pro 9
With ACW, firstly, it's necessary to set bar 1 (this is the song's very first strong beat that you'd feel when strumming the song).
Once bar 1 is set, it's then necessary to press F8 on all beat 1 so that a tempo map is created (that is, count the rhythm "1, 2, 3" while the song is playing and press F8 on all the "1" beats -- if you miss pressing F8 here and there, that's fine).
Also, the below video clip by PG Music might help with getting ACW working better.
In addition to Noel's instructions, the time signature has to also be set correctly to 3/4 or 4/4.
If that doesn't work for you, private message me and we can arrange for you to email me a mp3 of what you've recorded and I'll see if I can prepare a BIAB sgu file for you and then walk you through the process that worked for me.
And of course, remember in BIAB if your song starts in 3/4, and then switches to 4/4, it's not going to work properly. You need to set a 4/4 style in bar 1 (I usually just mute it), and after that you can go down to 3/4 and back to 4/4 as you wish. However, if you start with a 3/4 (waltz) style, you will never get a proper 4/4 bar. BIAB lets you take away beats from the initial time signature, but not add beats to it.
Haven't used ACW in awhile, but it seems you need to designate in ACW where things switch between 3/4 and 4/4 before sending it back to BIAB; otherwise, it won't be correct. The user manual has a section called "Odd Length Bars and Drastic Tempo Changes" which explains what to do to accommodate different time signatures.
And given that you seem to have played the chords on your guitar, can't you just enter the chords you played in the appropriate cells, or are you just going from a guitar single notes melody line? In which case, finding an appropriate chord progression will be challenging at best.
John
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Noel: Thanks for the tips and link to video. I'm sure that as I hone my skills at music theory this will increase my skills at using ACW.
Charlie: You are my hero. I'm feeling that I may have to take you up on your generous offer? I worked on it today and just can't get the "feel" of what I played grrr. The best part of your offer was teaching me the process you use to accomplish the end result. I really need to learn more of how to identify what I'm hearing. Breaking audio down in Melodyne has helped me in other songs but this one I feel like a lost puppy. I will convert it to MP3 (currently a wav) then figure out how to pm.....haven't done that before.
John: I did know about the 3/4 to 4/4 not working without starting with the 4/4. I think my problem is identifying if I'm hearing 3/4 or 4/4?
I will read that section of the user manual, for sure! I read the manual once but it clicks better after you start using.
Yes I do know the chords. In fact ACW got many of the chords wrong but I wasn't concerned knowing I could correct them once in BIAB. I did try from scratch but the only way I can describe is I couldn't get the "feel". I'm certain that is just my slim understanding of theory and identifying time signature and tempo. I know it sounds silly but I've always been a feel guitar player.....not ever worrying about what was technically happening just working my licks to sound like I wanted. Does that sound weird?
Again thanks for all the ideas and generous offers. Any others extremely welcome. I'm learning.
Mike
Last edited by mbsmike; 04/10/1902:19 PM.
Focusrite 2i2 2nd Gen Windows 10 pro 1709 16299.125 Intel core i7 6700k CPU @ 4.00GHz 4.01 GHz 16 gig memory BIAB UltraPak version is 2025 (Latest) Cubase pro 9
what you are doing is a lot more complicated than the way I do it. Select a style that's roughly right. set the key and tap in the approximate time. start the song (it will simply play the root chord of the key but that's ok). don't play the guitar but sing along until you 'feel' a chord change is needed. stop playback and enter the new chord. go back to the beginning and start again. when you pass the first chord change wait till you 'feel' the next one. stop the playback and enter the chord change. all you are doing in BIAB is what you would do on guitar figuring out the chords for a song by ear. in fact as you know the chords already it should be easy.
it's much easier than acw and tapping bar lines. then you can change the style and tempo to fine tune later on.
Thanks for the tip Bob. All other songs I've done in BIAB that has been my exact workflow. This one was just giving me fits.
I have received Charlie's generous work on a BIAB file using my audio file. I will post his workflow for creating the song file below. May help someone else in the future?
I had one chance to run the song as I've been out of town. From what I seen it looks fantastic. I will comment more when I've had more time to work with it.
As you will see in Charlie's comments on his workflow, the tempo drift was a real issue. This is the first time I recorded a "scrub" track in an attempt to glean information about tempo and time signature. It appears to me NOW that is maybe a bad thing to do? I believe that is why I struggled so much with this?
The goal was to make a scrub track that I could use in BIAB to create a backing track with the same general feel. Then record the guitar to the backing track, which for me playing with the drums prevents much tempo drift. Seems that wasn't such a good idea??
Here's Charlie's workflow and comments:
Well, it wasn’t too hard. My guess to you having issues is that the song starts out quite slowly and it’s several bars into the tune before the tempo levels out although the tempo stills drifts throughout the song. I kept note of the steps I took to analyze the song and will list them for you. This is my workflow and each step is not necessary, it’s just how I do it.
I first opened the song in Audacity for my initial listen as well as examine the wave form. In Audacity, I prepped the song in the way I have developed songs so there is consistency in my workflow and in the song form in regard to beginning, ending and volume level. For your song, I added several seconds of silence at the beginning, applied a slight fade in and then trimmed the intro into the song with just a touch more of silence before the start than your mp3 had. I also faded the last held chord and faded it into silence and trimmed the ending to the last full second. I exported the Audacity edited version of your song as a WAV file and saved it with a different name than the mp3 you sent to me. All of my work on the song in the BIAB program was done using the Audacity edited version of your song and not the original mp3 you sent.
I opened BIAB and imported the song using the Open icon. I opened the song in Audio Edit and listened to the song from beginning to end while the BIAB Style was disabled. I only listened to the imported audio and examined the WAV form and manually counted the tempo and visually lined up bars without actually marking any.
Listening to the song while visually looking at the WAV form benefits me with deciding the proper location of the beginnings of bars. So, from listening while looking, I determined the song tempo did not level off until bars 3-4
I closed the Audio Editor, killed the Audio and Opened a New Project of BIAB without saving the current project.
I imported your song into the New Project using the ACW radio button icon. This is the older version of the ACW and not the newer version that runs within the BIAB program from the Audio Editor. I could have used either but because with your song, there was a wide varying of tempo, the older version has colored markers across the top that are very useful and easier for me in some cases to accurately determine where bars should be located. Both work, I thought the older version would be easier for me with your song.
With the song open in the ACW, I did not immediately set the first bar at the beginning of the song (F6). Rather, I set a bar where the WAV form indicated what I had earlier determined to be bar 3 where the song tempo began to level when I had first listened to the song in BIAB with the Audio Editor open. It’s from that point that I used the F8 key to manually mark bars. Using my manual settings, the ACW calculated the beginning bars preceding my start from bar 3 as well as providing its determination of the first bar downbeat. The ACW calculated the first bar to be a few ticks prior to your first chord voicing. Essentially, the ACW calculated that in an actual count in situation, you were late on your count by a few ticks. That worked for me and the ACW had accurately analyzed your song in a single pass. I could deal with the song beginning once I was working on the song in BIAB. Allowing the ACW AI to coordinate with my manual input worked marvously for both bar detection and chord analysis. I accepted the ACW analysis for the first two bars, the ACW chord analysis, tempo map and chord detection and imported the song into BIAB.
With the default BIAB Style ZZJazz disabled, I auditioned your analyzed song playing to the BIAB generated chord chart and tempo map. Everything synced ok.
I opened the StylePicker and filtered my search to the feel, time signature, RealTracks Style only in the Folk genre and found a ballad that had the instrumentation that seemed to work for me to test with.
Knowing nothing about your idea for the actual song, I did not spend anytime searching and simply chose a style that would play along with your recorded guitar and I also wanted to add a instrument to play a melody.
That said, I did not attempt to spend anytime on locating a drum kit. Honestly, that would likely be difficult to find and also would likely only work with either a live performance of a drummer playing along with your recorded audio or the use of midi drums to edited to play and follow your guitar performance. You strumming is not consistent enough to align with drum beats. I muted the drums and did not use any RT strumming or Fingerpicked guitar, again because of the inconsistent strumming.
I did use a RT strumming guitar to expand the stereo field and play against your opposite panned guitar audio recording but I only used the RT strumming held chords on the first beat of bars.
To address the entry of your first guitar hit being a few ticks late and also the big discrepancy in tempo for the first few bars, I muted all BIAB instruments and allowed your guitar audio track to solo for the song intro. Using BIAB Bar Settings (F5), I introduced the BIAB instruments spreading their entry into the song over several bars.
Focusrite 2i2 2nd Gen Windows 10 pro 1709 16299.125 Intel core i7 6700k CPU @ 4.00GHz 4.01 GHz 16 gig memory BIAB UltraPak version is 2025 (Latest) Cubase pro 9
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