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Great discussion from Rick, who, BTW, is no johnny-come-lately to the industry.
His critical line was at 3:13 when he stated: "Nowadays, people who get signed ... are people who are already successful"
Notwithstanding, this shouldn't dampen the spirits of any enthusiastic singer/songwriter/performer. We all start somewhere. In history, if nobody ever dared to make a start we would still be living in caves.
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I thought people would have grown tired of me by now, but the replies keep coming and their quality never goes down. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now, Hire a good music business lawyer if things get serious. How do I find a "good" music business lawyer?
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No sure what kind of music you do or where you're at. If you're in Nashville check with Marc Allen Barnett for a reference for a good lawyer. Every state in the US has a state bar, you can probably Google for a lawyer specializing in music contracts. Possibly ASCAP or BMI members might have references for lawyers in each state.
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How do you (the generic you, not pointing at anyone) define success? Fame? fortune? job satisfaction? longevity? Answer that question and you'll instantly know when you're successful. However, the answer likely includes more than one word. Ever see the 1995 movie, +++ Mr. Holland's Opus +++, starring Richard Dryfess? It's about a musician that doesn't realize how successful he has been until his success is thrown back into his face. He never enjoyed his success because he was living it but his lifestyle was not his definition of success. There still are multiple ways to have a career in music but while some traditional doors are closing, other doors are opening. Many famous musicians have performed multiple "jobs" in the entertainment industry. Country singer Roger Miller played bass, sang harmony and was the front man for Ray Price while also writing songs and building his catalog. He became famous as a songwriter, singer, had a variety and sitcom television shows and wrote a Broadway play. Billy Ray Cyrus sings, writes songs, had multiple television series and is best known as the father of Miley Cyrus. Mark Knophler writes songs, plays guitar, sings, was the front man for a famous rock band, scores movies and has composed a symphony but he can't write or read music.
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Got this from Jack Blanchards' FB page. Sound advice methinks
THE BEST CAREER ADVICE WE EVER GOT... Misty and I had a steady job with our band in a high class Coral Gables supper club, playing light jazz dance music, and occasionally slipping in one of our own songs. We had made a couple of records that got local airplay, but were getting nowhere with amazing velocity... Dick Gillespie was a regular customer we talked with a lot. He was witty, in the Robin Williams style, and owned a local country station. He had won an Emmy for producing the Colgate Comedy Hour on TV. An intelligent guy.
I asked him one night why we weren't getting anywhere.
We were good musicians, I said,
we sang well, looked okay, and made nice records.
Why didn't he see that, and help us?
His answer hurt our feelings and saved our life.
He said, "You have nothing to sell.
Nobody is interested in the things you mentioned.
People won't walk across the street to see a good-looking musician,
but they'll stop for an auto accident."
More importantly, he said,
"Go home and develop an unusual style,
costume yourselves to attract attention,
and change your name if necessary.
Try singing different ways until the style is pronounced.
Style is more important than good singing.
Good singers back up artists with style.
Change your attitude.
Go for stage presence.
Be whoever you want to be, but be unique."
Then he added,
"You can't do this here in the town where they know you.
They won't accept it.
Go to a new place and walk in the door in your new way,
no matter how self-conscious you feel,
and they will think you were born that way."
Misty changed her name from Mary Blanchard,
we dressed pretty wild,
worked up a lot of new material and attitude,
went to Key West and tried it out.
We thought we'd be laughed at,
but they not only accepted us,
they packed the place to see and hear us.
We had a recording contract within two weeks,
and a Pick in Billboard within a couple of months.
We found out that the roles we were playing
were more real than playing dinner music in suit and gown.
Now we can't think of ourselves the old way.
We've been who we are now over half our lives.
It's us.
Dick Gillespie gave us the best advice we ever got,
so we pass it on to other striving artists.
It works.
Jack Blanchard
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How do you (the generic you, not pointing at anyone) define success? Fame? fortune? job satisfaction? longevity? Answer that question and you'll instantly know when you're successful. However, the answer likely includes more than one word.<...snip...> I've made a career out of doing what I would do for free. Instead of saying "I HAVE to go to work today", I say "I GET to to to work today." I get up in the morning, go to sleep at night, and in between do what I want to do. I'm successful. I don't live a life of luxury by any stretch of the imagination. Our modest house in a great neighborhood is paid off. I buy Dodge/Ford/Chevy price cars and run them until they are no longer dependable. I don't have jewelry, wide screen TV, a guitar collection, run the air conditioner (for both thrift and ecological concerns), or buy unnecessary items. Leilani and I both value experience over possessions and we've been to 49 US states, Puerto Rico, St. Thomas, St. Croix & St John (USVI), more than half the Canadian provinces, 7 Mexican states, Bahama Islands, Bermuda Islands, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Saint-Martin/Sint Maarten, Jamaica, Cayman Islands, England, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar, The Netherlands, Hungary, Spain, Italy, Morocco, Czech Republic, Australia, Russia, Japan and China (From the Great Wall down to Hong Kong). (Nicaragua, Japan and Russia were very short visits.) Vienna and Germany are next on the list. I almost made "the big time" once, and to tell the truth, I don't know if I would have been happier if we made it. There is no way to know. Some of the bands we opened for said it was more fun before they got famous, others seem to really enjoy the demands and rewards of making it. There is no sense thinking about it now. Everybody defines success differently and as you go through life, most people redefine success as their experiences of living change. I get up in the morning, go to sleep at night, and in between do what I want to do. How do you define success? Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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To tag on to what Notes said here's a recent quote from Taj Mahal.
"...I do what I do because I want to. Nobody can pay me to play music. They can pay me to put up with all of what I have to do in order to get to play music. But I play music for free."
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ignore this, I hit enter too soon 
Last edited by Notes Norton; 09/07/19 03:48 AM.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I tell people, "We don't charge you to play music, We charge you to schlep the gear."
We bring a lot of gear to the gig, 12 space rack full of PA and synth modules, two 15" speaker cabs, two guitars (one for me, one for Leilani), one Thunder Tactile MIDI Controller, three computers (only need two but one is on stand-by just in case), two wind synthesizers (one is a spare), one saxophone, one flute, one percussion controller, plus microphones, cables, and stands.
We get to the gig an hour and a half before the guests arrive, it takes us an hour to setup, but we leave that extra half hour to troubleshoot a cable that may have reached its "use by" date. It takes about 45 minutes to tear down.
Now I could leave some gear home, but they are all fun to play. Sometimes I wish I would have brought the bass or keyboard or some real drums, and that's when I tell myself,"Just stop!"
Most of our gigs are 3 hours of playing, and we rarely take a break. This is what we live for, this is what we schlep the gear for, this is what pays the mortgage, this is the most fun we can have with our clothes on, why take a break?
Our current longest weekly gig starts our 12th year next month. We have places we have played a few times per year for over 25 years now.
Our song list has changed through those years as the audience has changed. It's important to pay attention to what they want.
I like learning new songs so that's OK with me.
I definitely put more than 40 hours a week in to the career, but it's my time, nobody is telling me what to do, I do it because it needs to be done and I like it.
I would have made more money if I stayed in electronics and became a career wage slave to some impersonal corporation. But instead, I'm free. I'm my own boss, I live by my good decisions, hopefully learn from my bad ones, and although I'm at retirement age, I have no plans to do so. I'm having too much fun. If Willie Nelson and Tony Bennett can still gig, so can I, and as long as I can push air through the sax or pluck the guitar and someone wants to hire me, I'll still gig. A musician is what I am, not what I do.
It's not a very financially rewarding career, but it is an extremely rewarding career in other ways.
I think it's more difficult to have a career in music, but as any self-employed business person, you have to find a niche to fill where there is some demand, and fill that niche better than your competitors. It may not be live gigging, some do it on-line, some write songs for others, and so on.
Assess the demand, find your niche, and fill it.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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The commercial music field was and is a microcosm of our system and way of life, in general. Disruptive technology, so called, has parallel effects in various areas are the inevitable result of our connectivity, in so many ways. The full impact of the reorganization is unfolding. The currency of the music business was tapes and CDs, tickets, advertising on radio and TV -- what have I missed? The numbers show big drops in CD revenue and media advertising, not counting Google.
The oil for the wheels was power, individual and company. It might be said the same formulas apply through out. The kinds of excellence required for radio hits, heck, the business in general, is expensive.
The new technology is driving home a point that we have become conditioned to accept a certain brand of servitude. Breaking those chains is not everyone's cup of tea. There is a certain discomfort in it.
Last edited by edshaw; 09/19/19 12:22 PM.
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“If You can play Your stuff in a pub, then You´re a good band.”
― Paul McCartney
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It's finally paying off for my sister, who is a studio singer. She's in her 40's, has done studio singing work in the Indianapolis area for the past 20 years doing mostly sight reading of soprano parts for a company that publishes choral music for colleges and universities - for their demo recordings. She has made o.k. money doing that, but without a safety net. No benefits, insurance, etc. She attended some seminar of a person that is connected in with the Nashville studio scene, and lately she has been getting calls to sight read at parts some of the bigger studios in Nashville. For these sessions, she gets paid really well. Well enough that it's worth her driving from Indianapolis to Nashville for the day - she will record a full day. Her first gig was for a big videogame score for Electronic Arts - Hans Zimmer is the composer, and the gig was at Sony studios in Nashville. Here's a youtube where you can hear Heather singing on Hans Zimmer's site. http://www.hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=news_3&id_news=1095 The game is pretty violent depiction of WWI battles, so there's that to look out for if you click the link. Recently she was called to do vocals for a new Andrew Peterson Christmas album that's releasing in October. Andrew does a big show at the Ryman for a couple of dates every December. The recording she did last week is for the album supporting this show and tour. https://www.bandsintown.com/e/101308193But would she say it was a career? I don't know. She's the most professional musician I know very well. I know several others that are supporting musicians for big shots on tour - for example, I know the lead guitarists for Raelynn and Big Kenny (of Big & Rich), and I know Tyler Ward (from CO, but blew up huge in Germany - signed to Sony over there). I don't know what those guys make, but I know what my sister makes and without the benefits, it's hard to say it's a career when it's taken her 20 years to end up with these connections and opportunities.
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No benefits (insurance, retirement, sick leave, etc.) is a way of life for most of us in the music business. As we are our own employers we have to handle those ourselves.
But we are not wage slaves for some giant, impersonal corporation either.
Like a craftsman/craftswoman (electrician, plumber, etc.), store owner, doctor, or any other self-employed business person, we have the adventure and satisfaction of doing it our own way and not taking orders by some middle management person who doesn't know our job.
We live by our good decisions, learn from our bad ones (hopefully), and enjoy our jobs and our lives.
I've been a pro musician/vocalist for most of my adult life, and I'd do it again.
I tried two 'day jobs' while testing what it was to lead a normal life. Neither lasted very long and I played music on the weekends during those jobs. I found normal to be over-rated.
If I were to do it again, I'd be a musician again, but if I knew what I know now, I wouldn't have taken the day jobs because I know they aren't right for me.
Although I never made "The Big Time" (I got close once), I have no regrets. I'm living a happy life, loving what I am doing, and have no plans to retire because I really enjoy it.
In other words, I followed my bliss. I'm getting paid for doing what I would do for free.
Being self-employed isn't for everyone. Having a career in music is not for everyone. But for some of us it makes for a very happy life. Even if we don't get rich.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I only hit the big time once and got the big pay check.
I was playing in a one door in and one door out juke joint in South Central LA.
It was a song I wrote. When I finished a girl came up to me and said " you only white on the outside" She came to me and gave me a two dollar food stamp.
This brings a tear to my eye every time I remember it.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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<<Is there still a career in music? >>
This just came up in a post on my FB page from a group I subscribe to. For information only. I'm only posting the text and not the business ID.
"If anyone is looking for a Technical Director position an ******* church in B****, NC is looking for one. They are a church of around 1,200.
Salary: 45,000-55,000 Annually Benefits: Medical, Dental, Vision with premiums covered by the church Moving expenses included."
This job involves running the sound and video of the church. In other words, mixing the console …
This is a real job posting, available today and sounds like it could be a 'music career' move to me. Others thoughts?
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<<Is there still a career in music? >>
....................
Salary: 45,000-55,000 Annually Benefits: Medical, Dental, Vision with premiums covered by the church Moving expenses included."
This job involves running the sound and video of the church. In other words, mixing the console …
................. 45-55K? My brother did this for his church for free!
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
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Wow!
When I was a church member the ONLY one who got paid for anything was the preacher.
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The tech director of a church that has 1200 attendance, does way more than just run sound. These days it involves a pile of skill and knowledge, social and managerial skills, etc. etc. etc.
If you haven't been to a church of that size in the past 10 years, just make a visit to a service.
It's a big difference compared to even 20 years ago.
Knowledge of MIDI, DMX, USB, various networked digital audio and video protocols for distributed audio and video and In Ear Monitoring systems, wireless audio protocols, recording technology, scheduling volunteer software, and so on and on, are necessary to technically run church services in churches that size. Troubleshooting all of the above also part of those positions.
In a side job, I do A/V training for churches that are 1/4 to 1/2 that size meeting in temporary locations. I get $500/weekend for doing that training, and I don't have to know all of the stuff I listed above.
Discussions as to whether this is necessary should go into a different thread or just not happen.
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You guys who think this is surprising need to watch some YT vids of live church music. They're full blown concerts with all that entails. 1,200 seats is basically the main room at a big casino. This is pro level stuff.
Bob
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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