This is definitely my weak point. Drums! I try not to think of them much and just have BIAB do its thing. It is really all about bass, piano, guitars and maybe a horn or two. Right?
But then I hear the beat in the background in a really nice tight arrangement. Or a I listen to a popular tune and recognize that vibe is all drums. Or I hear a fill which is the perfect fill. Lets face it, we all know, the drummer is the hardest working member of the band. And I wonder... how can I get that in my mix!
Real Drums Drums in BIAB have always been "set it and forget it". On one hand wonderful - they sound good right out of the box. But on the other hand they can be greatly lacking in originality and flexibility. Or, maybe I have just been missing how to work with RealDrums!
Other Tools Over the years I have picked up a few extra tools. The Toontrack's EZDrummer series is really powerful and I have used this when I need that special something. But with that power comes extra work as well as a prerequisite to better understand drums. If this is the answer then I believe I simply need to learn more about how a drummer thinks and put in the time to "program the drums". Not something I have been willing to do as a routine workflow.
Another drum tool is Jamstix. This program thinks more like I do about drums. Actually there is a big sale now at the site:
https://www.rayzoon.com/online_shop.html#tgb Click and listen to the new "Darkside" drums "... a drum style marked by steady grooves with a straight ride pattern and big tom-heavy fills oozing triplets" for 9 USD
which is why I am thinking about this now. Is there something/anything in this demo link above, which is even remotely possible with Realdrums?
I looked at SD3 vs. EZD. I'm a complete control freak and I went with SD3 as a result. With that tool I can export each drum part from the app into my DAW. Once there as separate pieces I can tweak away how I want to get a good drum mix.
I tend to start with a MIDI drum groove from BIAB, get the drum kit I want in SD3, then final tweaks in DAW.
I looked at SD3 vs. EZD. I'm a complete control freak and I went with SD3 as a result. With that tool I can export each drum part from the app into my DAW. Once there as separate pieces I can tweak away how I want to get a good drum mix.
I tend to start with a MIDI drum groove from BIAB, get the drum kit I want in SD3, then final tweaks in DAW.
Ya I have the EZD2, but this is before SD3 was available. SD3 is the flagship and likely worth every cent if you like to tweek. I was just about to pull the trigger some time back but had second thoughts at the time. No regrets. Have you ever looked at Jamstix?
I did just listen to the Darkside drums and looked at the Jamstix package overall at your rayzoon link (BTW your link didn't work, had to go to the main page).
Those drums really did have the Pink Floyd vibe. Jamstix in my initial look appears to be a lower cost version of SD3. It seemed to have a lot of the similar functions of SD3. Since I blew my $$$ on SD3 and it works for me, I'll probably stick with it.
I did just listen to the Darkside drums and looked at the Jamstix package overall at your rayzoon link (BTW your link didn't work, had to go to the main page). Those drums really did have the Pink Floyd vibe.
Funny the link works here? Glad you found it. Have you heard anything like that in RealTracks?
Originally Posted By: sslechta
Jamstix in my initial look appears to be a lower cost version of SD3. It seemed to have a lot of the similar functions of SD3. Since I blew my $$$ on SD3 and it works for me, I'll probably stick with it.
Yes a much cheaper option. But also a completely different animal. It is actually very fun to lay out drum tracks.
I used Jamstix for several years, then started using RDs I also have EZDs and a couple others I like to start with RealDrums, then add a EZD track and split the drums up. Make a drum group and tweek from there.
Last edited by RobH; 11/17/1906:48 PM.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
Drums were my first instrument. I switched to sax while in Junior High School, and picked up guitar, bass, and keyboards traveling in a road band so on songs with no horn parts I could double on other instruments.
Since the drummer sang, I could still play drums and since the bass player was also a good guitarist, when not playing rhythm, I could play bass and let him 'duel it out' with the regular lead player.
We'd make a big deal of switching instruments for the right audiences, because switching instruments was good 'show biz' back then (probably still is).
Later I added flute, wind synth, and voice.
Learning drums requires a few things. (1) a good percussion MIDI controller (2) learning the drum rudiments {the drummers equivalent to scales} (3) listening intently and emulating the great drummers of pop music like Hal Blaine, Pretty Purdy, John Bonham and so on.
So when making my backing tracks, I put the basic drum track in first. I might modify it later.
When making Band-in-a-Box styles, I record a long take on a MIDI sequencer with all the instruments I want in the style and all the variations I want. Drums first. I can add or subtract before I'm done. Then I take snippets from 2 beats to 2 bars and import them into the StyleMaker.
I firmly believe that playing the drums in real time adds the life to the rhythm section. Something you can't get with step-entering or the drum grid.
Playing all the parts live, drums included, makes the song sound more cohesive and organic.
There is no substitute for a real drummer for the styles of music this forum is about. Modern music not so much. The big issue is the drummer leads the band not the other way around. Once a chart is created and the drummer becomes familiar with it he or she simply takes over. He knows all the punches and all the transitions to various sections. The drummer is the glue that holds the tune and the band together.
Real Drums are great, live recordings by the best but they're not on your session, they have no idea what you're after. All these drum synths including Biab can produce solid groove tracks but as far as leading the band is concerned, that's on you. You have two choices, learn it yourself or hire a good drummer.
Real Drums are great, live recordings by the best but they're not on your session, they have no idea what you're after. All these drum synths including Biab can produce solid groove tracks but as far as leading the band is concerned, that's on you. Bob
Bob, you do occasionally get it right. Well said... and this is exactly my problem with Realdrums. They are fine, if you want to stop there. So the answer, short of live playing, is to build the drum track with a tool such as SD3 or EXD2 or Jamstix. Is that the conclusion we are coming to?
What I am asking is, is Real Drums flexible enough to go beyond simply laying down a beat?
My two bobs worth. If RealDrums had an option split into separate tracks for snare, kick, hi hat, toms and overheads (ie the mikes that recorded them) allowing one to mix there own drums it would make them way more useful. It would also make “drum replacement” far easier.
I think the playing on RealDrums is usually great but often the mix leaves something to be desired.
As I say my two bobs worth.
Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
You have more flexibility in RB RealDrum generation than some users realize. You can select a section, and when you go to regenerate that RD section, pay attention to the Variations window on the right. This alone offers many more possibilities. Same kit, but an 'A' section is played with more Snare than Sidestick, or vice versa. (other options available depend on the Style selection). Experiment.
That said, I've found that working with 'real drummers' (recording multitrack audio) can be quite time consuming sometimes too. Guess you really have to prioritize for the song and choose the best route, including any tools available.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Thanks Rharv. I have seen those options but honestly have never spent any time there. The workflow appears less than appealing, but maybe that is being unfair.
I think I need more variety from my drummer. Less static and more dynamic. I guess the trade off is going to be how much time I am willing to invest in the effort. I am afraid Real Drums can not change are the frequency I am looking for. A fill only at a part marker. But BIAB does not let me create enough parts in a fluid manner.
So I just played with Jamstixs over a looping 12 bars of four repeating chords I laid down with my keyboard. In only minutes I had the drummer riffing and improving. All that sweet stuff drummers do... I simply have never heard that in Real Drums. Let me make a quick audio so you can hear what I am hearing.
My two bobs worth. If RealDrums had an option split into separate tracks for snare, kick, hi hat, toms and overheads (ie the mikes that recorded them) allowing one to mix there own drums it would make them way more useful. It would also make “drum replacement” far easier.
I think the playing on RealDrums is usually great but often the mix leaves something to be desired.
As I say my two bobs worth.
Tony
I would add the ability to change the groove and/or change drum instruments individually.
All this can be done with a good MIDI drum channel on a good synthesizer. After all, many modern recordings are played with real drummers playing MIDI drum kits.
IMO the good part of the real tracks is the tone but the bad part is the minuscule amount of editing possibilities. Expression is much more important than the finer points of tone. Millions of #1 recordings with less than stellar tone on the instruments and vocals prove this.
Since we're talking drums --- after it's exported into your DAW:
With MIDI, say you want a ride bell instead of a ride cymbal. Click - click done. Same for a wood snare instead of a metal one or any other drum instrument change.
Say you want to eliminate a particular drum for a part, perhaps the cowbell, click - click it's gone.
Need to exaggerate the groove, perhaps delay the snare? A few more clicks (depending on your DAW editing functions) and it's done.
And this only scratches the surface of what you can do with MIDI drums.
* * * * * *
But nothing beats playing the drums life.
In the recording studio, the drummer is the king of both tempo and the groove. Everybody has to listen to the drummer and sync with his/her playing.
That's why when either writing new styles for BiaB or making backing tracks for my duo, I start by playing the drum rhythm into a MIDI sequencer or the MIDI function of a DAW in live (in real time). There is no way to calculate the exact variation of the timing from a quantized grid, you have to play it and feel it.
Then I play the bass and other comp parts in over the drum groove. Lastly I may open another drum track to add embellishments and add that to the drum groove.
If you want it to sound live, you simply play it in live and use a good synth to play it back.
Drums are one of the instruments that MIDI does extremely well. The problem with BiaB's MIDI drum tracks are that they are 120PPQ. That can make a drum track sound static. A subtle humanizing in a DAW at 960PPQ helps a lot.
Also augmenting a BiaB MIDI drum track by either writing or adding a few parts and/or substituting sections with MIDI drum loops like Groovemonkee also helps a lot.
The best thing about MIDI is that you can have the drummer play what you want when you want.
Note that this is not diminishing the fact that RDs are useful. It is a choice and choices are good. I just prefer to work in MIDI most all of the time. YMMV
Edit - It looks like Notes and I were writing a similar message at the same time.
Last edited by MarioD; 11/19/1904:02 AM.
OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Hey guys, regarding midi drums you both are preaching to the choir here. But I do appreciate the sermon. The drum sounds from EZD2 and Jamstix are fantastic.
Some one mentioned a need for more variety (...maybe it was me?). I don't want my drums to simply play the same pattern over and over with a fill at each chorus. I want to hear both subtle changes in patterns combined with more aggressive changes thoughout [of course when appropriate - nothing worse than a drunk drummer].
What I mean is, I want to have more options, and in an interface that makes the editing workflow enjoyable. So far the closest I have come to that is Jamstix - but admittedly I have a long way to go.
I was going to post a quick audio/video example last night, but got to tweeking... so it ain't done yet. This stuff is not so quick.
Hey guys, regarding midi drums you both are preaching to the choir here. But I do appreciate the sermon. The drum sounds from EZD2 and Jamstix are fantastic.
Some one mentioned a need for more variety (...maybe it was me?). I don't want my drums to simply play the same pattern over and over with a fill at each chorus. I want to hear both subtle changes in patterns combined with more aggressive changes thoughout [of course when appropriate - nothing worse than a drunk drummer].
What I mean is, I want to have more options, and in an interface that makes the editing workflow enjoyable. So far the closest I have come to that is Jamstix - but admittedly I have a long way to go.
I was going to post a quick audio/video example last night, but got to tweeking... so it ain't done yet. This stuff is not so quick.
The stock MIDI loops do have subtle changes in them. For instance if you want a 4/4 ballad groove they will supply a number of them, I'll call them A, B and C. In each category there are subtle changes, say A1, A2, A3, B1, etc. There will also be different fills for each and you can combine any of the categories for more variations.
Note that I do no work for Groovemonkee. I am just a satisfied user.
OK, a random thought; Why does toilet paper need a commercial? Who's not buying it?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Mario, you turned me on to GrooveMonkey long ago. I have all the free content they provide and I agree it is nice stuff. It integrates into EZD2 which provides a nice interface for working with the midi content. Thanks.
Hey Dan, another perspective! But let me say that these quotes from previous responses, your included - pretty well sum up the reality:
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
“…the answer then I believe I simply need to learn more about how a drummer thinks and put in the time to "program the drums". Not something I have been willing to do as a routine workflow.
I have been producing music professionally for a lot of years and have had to manage the drum side of things in many scenarios. What I have found- The level of your ‘fantastic drum sounds/ realistic performance’ in my experience is a direct result of the time put into it and the level you know your tools and your ability to think like a drummer. There is just no way around the long hours even with modern tools if you want to customize for a song, and as Bob said, 'lead the song' with energy, style, intent and feel. Which...could mean in real time…for me…2-3 full studio days working on BASIC drums alone for one song and then refining ‘drummer level’ details (open, semi, closed hats for EACH hit - rim, center snare dynamics, bell or cymbal edge etc..) over the course of the song. When the result of your labor is the ability for exceptional drummers to ask who was playing drums during playback, it is worth it! And since my ‘professional’ instrument is bass, and since I play drums pretty well, I have a pretty good idea on how a groove should be managed. But its been years in progress!
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
…”(3) listening intently and emulating the great drummers of pop music like Hal Blaine, Pretty Purdy, John Bonham and so on””
^^ This ^^
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
…”but as far as leading the band is concerned, that's on you. You have two choices, learn it yourself or hire a good drummer.
^^ This ^^
Originally Posted By: MusicStudent
“What I am asking is, is Real Drums flexible enough to go beyond simply laying down a beat?
^^ YES ^^!!
BIAB REAL DRUMS: You are right about Real Drums – they can feel light on your track choice after a few years of using them! And they have their limits: And as Tony mentioned
Originally Posted By: Teunis
I think the playing on RealDrums is usually great but often the mix leaves something to be desired.
…the production quality is very random as many of these RT drummers record from their own studios and have different production techniques. Since they are ‘premixed’ they are challenging to match production quality. It can be done…but takes A LOT of specialized skill and time and more time. RTDs are often relegated to demos at best for me. Still, I find GREAT inspiration in them for writing and I HAVE used RT in limited form for a professional song or two on a record release in the past. That said – Yes sir, you can get more from Real Tracks in terms of originality. But again…you have to be willing to be creative, patient, and exhaustive in cutting, pasting, rearranging, automating, re-creating, drum replacement etc etc.. I do it often for simple demos, but there is always a compromise of time and/or quality.
Originally Posted By: MarioD
“… You might want to looking Groovemonkee MIDI drum loops: https://groovemonkee.com/ “…” Note that I do no work for Groovemonkee. I am just a satisfied user.
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Drums are one of the instruments that MIDI does extremely well.
^^ This is great advice ^^ Big supporter and user of Groove Monkey midi tracks
And...lastly (not that you asked!! LOL)
Some of my own drum tools: (for reference, not recommendation), BFD3, SSD4, SSD5, EZDrummer, Groove Agent, Strike Drums, (1000s of midi grooves bought from every supplier) Loop Libraries and my collection of vintage drum machines and all expansion tools (Roland R8 and all the cards, Alesis HR16, HR16B, Yamaha RX5 w/ roms, Linn 2, Emu Emulator, Akai MPC and others) They ALL have their moments for me, they ALL get used and I have done records/songs/demos with combinations of all of them including live drum sessions intermixed. I personally cannot have enough choices for drums.
My own bottom line: Nobody can do your drummer pushups for you, except a drummer! But it is a learning curve WELL WORTH the time spent! As non drummers, we all have to manage this part of production but gratefully there are some PHENOMENAL tools available today!
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Well said... and this is exactly my problem with Realdrums. They are fine, if you want to stop there. So the answer, short of live playing, is to build the drum track with a tool such as SD3 or EXD2 or Jamstix. Is that the conclusion we are coming to? 
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