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Hi!
AFAIK "sus2" is only an alias for "2", "add2" aka "add9".
Would be nice if BB would honour the missing 3rd.
Masi
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In my understanding of music theory, there is no third, and should not be a third, in a sus2 chord. BIAB correctly 'honors the missing third' by omitting it. Or did I misunderstand your request?
If you would like to see how PG Music handles these chords, look at this from the file /BB/Data/pgshortc.txt
I highlighted the related built-in shortcuts.
; Note these are already defined in BB, and you can't over-ride these shortcuts
;sus2@2 add2@2 m+@m#5 dim7@dim 7aug@7+ sus4@sus 11@9sus 9sus4@9sus
;13sus4@13sus add9@2 7sus4@7sus s@7sus h@m7b5 d@dim J@MAJ7
; f@7b9 m7+@m7#5 NC@C. no chord l@7Alt u@(Blues) 7u@7(Blues)
; Lyd@lydian Lyd@lyd Lyd@4#
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Then you see that sus2 is treated the same as add2 and add9. The latter two feature a third while the former, we agree on that, don't.
AFAIK add2 and add9 are the same. Perhaps add2 implies a closed chord with the 2 actually played as a second in comparison to add9 where a voicing of second isn't for me the first choice.
I'm not a Jazzer so I cannot say anything about proper chord additions or substituitions. But I wouldn't except a change within the fifth above the root note. That is, a notated M3, m3, sus2 or sus4 is left alone but may be extended with 7th, 9th flat or sharp etc.
Masi
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Yes, we are close. I think perhaps you meant to write 'accept' instead of 'except', and I would agree.
In other words, the sus2 does not contain the 3rd of the chord. The add2 and add9 do.
Add2 and add9 are not the same; the difference is the register of the note that is the second or the ninth relative to the root. It is the same pitch but in a different register (octave).
However, yes, as I showed, BIAB treats all three as the same. That doesn't mean you will get the right chord or the wrong chord in any given instance. BIAB plays chord voicings somewhat at random, limited by what the RealTracks artist recorded. In the case of MIDI, except for voicing, then the chord should be correct but, as noted in this case, BIAB does not distinguish between the three chord types.
So, since this is the Wishlist, I think what you may be requesting is that BIAB not treat all three of these chord types the same. For that, +1. I've written about this for decades. I think that the MIDI could be fixed in programming. But to support the differences in RealTracks, it would probably involve a serious change to the indexing of the performances already recorded.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Yes, we are close. I think perhaps you meant to write 'accept' instead of 'except', and I would agree. Oh, I wanted to write "exPect". But "accept" is an acceptable wording  Add2 and add9 are not the same; the difference is the register of the note that is the second or the ninth relative to the root. It is the same pitch but in a different register (octave). I would put it the same. I didn't word it that way because I think that some people use them arbitrarily. If BB would treat them different the better. So, since this is the Wishlist, I think what you may be requesting is that BIAB not treat all three of these chord types the same. For that, +1. I've written about this for decades. I think that the MIDI could be fixed in programming. But to support the differences in RealTracks, it would probably involve a serious change to the indexing of the performances already recorded. Fixing that for MIDI would be a step in the right direction. PGM has added RealCharts to existing RealDrums so there is hope. Masi
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I've also asked for this multiple times. sus2 and sus4 are supposed to replace the third with the 2 and 4, respectively, not add the 2 or 4 to the chord by including the 3. This also gets to be important where a song (and I've seen several examples) will do a Csus4 (or just Csus with the 4 implied), C, C2, C...so you can hear the movement within the chord of F to E to D and back to E, and variations thereof.
And of course, the add9 is supposed to do just that to the major chord, omitting the 7th you get with, say a C9 chord (C-E-G-Bb-D); the Cadd9 would be C-E-G-D (above the G). Likewise, the add2 would be more of a close chord by inserting the 2 between 1 and 3 (C-D-E-G).
As someone who uses this a lot, this is definitely something I wish would get fixed. I do know that sometimes it gets it right, but that's more a factor of the randomly selected parts of the style, where the 3 might be left out of a particular riff defined in the style or RT; but other times the 3 gets put back in.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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All correct.
BIAB has been this way for decades, and likely from the beginning. I don’t know what changing it would entail. I imagine fixing the MIDI could be done.
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+1
Also don't forget that you can modify or change any chord in MIDI via either the Piano Roll View or in notation.
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Well, I'll add my +1 to the list of replies. By definition, Sus2's and Sus4's do NOT contain the third. I've been after them to do this for some time now. It is possible to get close to this by not allowing BiaB to modify the chords -- Options>Preferences>click the "Arrange" Tab and select "Never" down at the bottom of the dialog. I've noticed that by doing this my sus2's and sus4's don't get a third. However, if I use the Melodist to try and generate a melody, it will often use 3rds. So I then have to go in and edit out the 3rds from the melody.
Last edited by cooltouch; 01/04/20 06:53 AM.
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I’m not sure that sus2 is a normally accepted jazz chord terminology. Also add2 is really unnecessary as the correct term for this in my view is add9. As previously stated the add9 is a chord with a ninth but without the normally included 7th. However when you have 9ths or add9ths the exact voicing of where the 9th is placed is not set in stone. For instance in the case of C9 you could voice it as say (from bottom to top) c,e, g, bflat, d or equally you could voice it c, g, bflat, d, e. In this latter voicing the 9th is placed just under the third. The piano player or guitarist is given free license to use their own taste in how it is voiced. The same applied to an add9 chord. Sus2 is a slightly odd and unclear terminology I think. If you want a chord of C with no third and which includes a d then you might for instance write Gsus4 instead or Gsus4/C! The jazz chord system quite often breaks down and becomes unclear at times and writing full notation might be preferred.
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I concur, sus2 has always been a little suspect to jazz players.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I’m not sure that sus2 is a normally accepted jazz chord terminology. There is a music outside of jazz. And for this music sus2 makes sense. And in thos worl as has been explained in previous points it is distinct from add9. Maybe you don't need it in the jazz world and that's fine. But if I'm doing a pop/rock track and I want a sus2 I want to hear a sus2, not some other chord a jazzer might come up with. Masi PS: I wish BiaB wouldn't rely so heavily on jazz terms only. I mean "chorus" alone is confusing for anyone who's not doing jazz. If BiaB is meant to be open for other styles there is no point in not accepting a feature request because it doesn't fit into the world of jazz.
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It's pretty rare I encounter someone who believes chord theory differs because of genres. I don't. I just don't like referring to sus2, anywhere. If you want it, though, that's fine because this is the Wishlist. Your original request was to have a sus2 chord not have - never have - the third of the chord, yes? And because BIAB calls three chord types by a 2 chord (sus2, add2 and add9), this is a problem. On that we agree. What BIAB calls a 2 chord needs refinement.
You are also correct, BIAB started as a way to practice jazz fakebook tunes, and the concept of chorus verses verse/chorus/bridge is a strong holdover. But with Song Form, you can overcome that.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I'm in agreement with masi. I'm not a jazz player, so frankly I don't care how jazz folks feel about the term "sus2." To me, the name describes the chord. There's very little there that is unclear. A 2nd is held in suspension in favor of the 3rd. You could almost argue that a sus2 is a collection of intervals more than it's a chord, since all you get is a 1, 2 and 5. But I don't have problems with that. As long as I can use it where I want, and I get that open, spacey feel that a sus2 provides.
With respect to the add2 and add9 chords, I do see a difference, mostly in the way the notes are applied in a score. With an add9, I would expect to see it in the upper registers, since its name implies that it's an octave higher than some tonic note of the chord. But an add2 implies that it remains close to the tonic. In point of fact, I've used "add2" chords where the root of the chord was the 2nd. In that sort of case, I believe the term "add9" would be inappropriate.
Getting back to the sus2 for a moment, BiaB is not without its peculiarities associated with that chord. For example, it doesn't allow one to name a 7sus2, even though it's very easy to play one on guitar, for example. Perhaps one would argue that it's just a 9th chord missing the 3rd, but to me the 3rd is quite important when voicing a 9th chord, so I can see where using a 7sus2 voicing would be appropriate, especially when one does not want to hear the 3rd.
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