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for large projects lotsa traks n plug ins they truly are a pain.
every retail one i test has dpc red spikes.
non ti firewire chipsets. etc etc.
you just cant pound the heck outta em like
you can desktop quads etc.
driving me nuts testing em for friends..
who "wanna go mobile".
everyone wants to go mobile..lol..
but sorry they just dont cut it imho for serious daw use.
i'm sure some will disagree with me..lol...
apologies for the rant.
just fed up testing the darn things.
only ones that look good are custom adk ones..
and other custom vendors, but outside my various friends price ranges.
aaarrrggghh ..lol.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Nice problem to have.
LOL,
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Macbook Pro. The original Audio lappies are all Macs. PC is catching up, though, but one must do their homework if DAW is what they want to do with it. At that point, then, this is just yet another reason why true Recording Engineers still manage to get work.
There are also some PC based laptops that make worthy DAWs, most of them aren't readily available on consumer shelves in discount houses, though.
And there's nothing inherently wrong about that, after all, there are also those who know that if they really want a PC to perform as a DAW, they either build their own from specified "known good" parts for the purpose, or they pay someone else to do so. Whole companies have sprung up specializing in the building of DAWS, even DAW laptops.
manning, all this amounts to really is people having great expectations for discounted consumer stuff.
The same problem applies to desktop DAWs as well.
All those posts from all those folks who went out and bought a slashed price Dell desktop awhile back and then the trouble begins...
I've got a PC based laptop here that routinely records 16 tracks of audio in the field. It has replaced my onlocation rackmount PC for that purpose. With E-MU 1616M plus Behringer A-D for the other 8 inputs, along with a Firewire external drive plugged into the E-MU's FireWire port, the thing just works. And I didn't have to also put a UPS in the rack, the laptop's battery pack works just fine if the power drops. But I did my homework well before ordering and I spent more money than the average laptop consumer is likely to agree about. So mine works well and theirs doesn't.
--Mac
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frankly i blame the marketing blokes.
cos lots of people go out blindly n buy "anything" believing the
marketing line "its all gonna be easy plug n play" etc etc...lol.
yeah mac..everyone wants a 2.5k laptop for a few hundred
buks. lol.
funnily enough the likkle netbooks, there dont seem to be as copious
dpc red spikes . but still some. also no good running oodles
of real time plug ins.
anyhoo i'm telling my friends ive had it..
they can go n test emselves..lol.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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I shopped specifically for a lappy with TI firewire chipset. IBM/Lenovo Thinkpad is what I ended up with.
Running strong for 3 years now, hit it with plenty of plugins on tracks.
Running oodles of plugins is not smart in any situation when you have freeze available in your DAW software.
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rockstar.
yeh but do the thinkpads today have TI ??
the problem is that manufacturers change the darn configs.
for example my amd desktop by acer has TI.
but intel versions dont seem to.
i was at the store tother day.
looking at every single brand.
none had TI. cost cutting prolly...n licensing cost aspects prolly.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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That might make a good song.
Pulled the laptop from my saddle bag
Plugged in the solar panel,
Tied my hoss to an old willow tree,
And found a Youtube channel.
Little Dusty my trusty laptop,
Gave me 4 bars in that gulch,
And I wondered about why I cared
That Tiger was ground to mulch.
A Sittin' in the Wilderness
Jus north of Edmonton
Me and Little Dusty
Were havin' so much fun.
Can't say where I've been
Can't say where I'm goin'
But it's good to google news
Unless it gets to snowin'.
Me and Little Dusty
Firewire and USB
Sitting in the warm fall sun,
Under an old Willow tree.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Manning, Yes my Thinkpad as a TI firewire chipset. I actually got through to a salesman who could assure me right up front that it was a TI chipset. He promised me I could send the thing back for a full refund if it didn't have that chipset. I don't know if IBMs still have TI chipsets or not - as you are aware, things change very rapidly in PC world. Here's the thing - there are really only a few laptop manufacturers that along with making lappys themselves, also private label for the big names. Acer is one, Asus another, ProStar is another (I'm remembering off the top of my head right now) I think Lenovo/IBM actually makes their own, or at least specs their own. I remember ProStar actually listed out their chipsets on their website. That brand was recommended to me by a friend that has had a successful home and small-business computer sales/networking business since around 1987 or so. That's 20+ years buttering his bread in the DIY computer market. He did have a couple bad years when after he moved into a much larger location, the road commission basically shut down any walk-in business to that location to make a big change to some entrance/exit ramps on I-75 in MI. I ended up buying the Thinkpad because I got a better deal than with the ProStar. It has been bullet-proof mechanically and hardware-wise. Software - I've run into an issue where the DVD/CD Writing software that came native with the machine doesn't work and I've had to go with a 3rd party app. -Scott Article on which company makes laptops for which big-name brands - Interesting to see that Acer makes some Apple lappys: http://www.laptopworldwide.com/laptops.htmlOne other tidbit, guess who services many of the big brands? If you've read the book "The World is Flat" you already know the answer is United Parcel Service. Yes, that's right folks, UPS does the typical 'swap component' service for Toshiba and I believe some of the other big names in lappy-world at their own shipping facilities - saves the lappy manufacturer all of the shipping costs to send lappy and components to/from the service center.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/05/09 12:36 PM.
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scott.
yep there are only a few manufacturers of lappies.
same for macbooks.
i dont know who makes the mac towers..but on the macbooks..
put in google search quanta and macbook for example.
the few lappie manufacturers just slap different brand name labels on. lol.
frankly i hope all this consumer junk is replaced by vastly superior
architectures like quantum or optical computing.
but till that day comes , the trickle trickle milking of consumers wallets
will continue. and sold as "hi tech" lol.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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A consumer who buys an SUV for the purpose of Autocross Racing is not a very savvy consumerand truly has only him or herself to blame.
--Mac
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Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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manning,
The high-powered nicely equipped laptops are there - you will pay the price for them. Just like in the old days. When I was shopping the Clevo and Pro-Star and IBM stuff a few years ago, I was in the 1000+ price range. Yes, there were much cheaper offerings from each of those vendors, but none of the cheaper offerings had what I was shopping for. So I got what I paid for.
Mac has stated many times, including in this post, that he doesn't bother shopping the consumer line of HP lappys. He specifically seeks out the business solutions (my HP business laptop I had at GM was a very reliable box - nary an issue in 2+ years of 8-10 hours per day, 5-6 day per week use and transport all across the globe).
I've gotta throw something back at you. For many years, you've been drooling over quad core processors, etc. as what will be the 'real' solution - yet all of this time, there are people all over the world happily making music with machines that are very far back on the technology curve.
Many of those folks using plugins as their primary sound generation and modulation devices as well (I'm in this pack). One just has to know how to use those tools like any other tool.
Let's talk guitar amps as an example.
There are some folks who swear by amp simulation - I'm one of them. Main reason is the decision to choose practicality of transport for a perhaps slight degradation in authenticity. I can have a Marshall Plexi, Fender Blackface, Vox AC 30, Mesa Boogie and Matchless amp sound at my fingertips and with none of the back breaking issues or physical space needed to house all of those.
If I'm arguing against amp simulation - and I have the money and space to house all of them - I would be stupid to put them all on one of my 15 amp circuits in my house and switch them all on simultaneously or use them simultaneously. That would be the incorrect use of the tools.
Same goes for using plugins and laptops. Know and study the tools - use them in their intended manner, and you'll have clear sailing. Plenty of laptops out on the market today and in the past that are up to music tasks and don't even breathe hard in the process. I use my Thinkpad for a good hour before the supplemental cooling fan in the thing kicks into high-speed.
I'm wondering if the test you refer to has real-world significance for the home recordist? Is there a way I can try to track the processor usage of a typical session I have on the Thinkpad, just for comparison purposes?
No need for whatever quantum computing is. I know what optical computing is. Way off in the future. I want to make music NOW.
As Sam pointed out - Caveat Emptor. Price of entry is still pretty doggoned low for highly capable boxes. It might not be in the newspaper advertisements, but the technology is already here and has been for years.
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I've seen too many folks staring at the CPU Usage indicator and freaking out when it reaches 100%, something it is a) supposed to do at certain times and b) unless it sticks there forever, is not a problem at all.
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Quote:
I've seen too many folks staring at the CPU Usage indicator and freaking out when it reaches 100%, something it is a) supposed to do at certain times and b) unless it sticks there forever, is not a problem at all.
To take this thought a step further - if it can't reach 100% on occasion then you have other problems that should be addressed - like RAM (speed and amount), Disk I/O etc..
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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manning--
One of the things most people don't know much about is the Power Management setup.
Especially on laptops, it is usually set to allow the product to earn the Green Meanie award, rather than to allow the computer to work hard.
The recordist should investigate their laptop choice thoroughly as to how it handles Power Management of the CPU.
Some will throttle back the CPU speed when it thinks the computer "isn't busy" enough to warrant the full capability of the clock cycles.
Problem with that is easy enough to guess, when the DAW software demands CPU, there is this time lag while the CPU "throttes up" -- but by the time it gets to full speed, you've already experienced the dreaded Audio Dropout.
Turn. That. OFF.
Also, set the laptop -- and its screen and hard disk -- in the Windows Control Panel to be "Always On" when plugged into the mains AC, too.
--Mac
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scott.
with respect your missing one major point.
your not a typical user.
you know well the limits of your lap etc etc.
your a seasoned user like mac is.
there are lots of new people coming into the recording
market not knowing lots of subtle details like you n mac do.
eg the chipsets and fw and dpc etc etc.
and potential limitations.
so they just go out and naively get any old cheap 400 buk lappie ,
then discover various probs etc.
look around various recording forums and youll see the result of this
situation. lots of people looking for help with their lappies.
particularly when they try n playback lots of 32 bit //96 traks etc . lol.
try running lots of omnisphere instances for example.
merry xmas to all btw.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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Manning1,
I respectfully will disagree with you about 'typical' user. I think I'm very typical in the home recordist world - at least when I compare notes with other users.
Here at PG Music, I may 'stick out' - but not in other home recordist forums.
All of the consumer-level magazines aimed at home recordists address this issue quite eloquently. Computer Music magazine, Beat magazine in Germany, Sound-on-Sound, Electronic Musician, you name it.
If users can't figure out that they shouldn't record all their tracks at 96 kHz, then they need to read up on their hobby.
Here's the problem, manning: Next year, or the year after or at least some time in the future, the hardware folks will tout 192 kHz recording as 'the only real way to do things' even for the home recordist. What kind of computer will handle that?
You've got to know the tools and the technology. If not, then pick a different hobby. It's really that simple.
-Scott
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+1 to Mac's original post on this thread.
I've spent years as both musician and IT professional using PC's and Mac's. When it comes to music applications, there really isn't a fair comparison between the two. Now with Core midi/audio, the Mac platform leaves the PC in the dust. The whole latency/driver/midi timing issues that I ALWAYS have with PC's, I NEVER have with Mac. I plug it in, it works flawlessly, and I get my work done in a shorter period of time.
My only wish is the Mac version of BIAB catch up with the PC in features.
And my opinion of 96/192 KHZ recording?........Yes, if you have Apogee converters, or better yet, $5000 lying around to buy a Prizm sound Orpheaus, then you will hear the difference. If you expect a big difference with garden variety gear (M-audio, MOTU, etc) you will be sorely dissapointed.
It is the quality of the Converters (both AD and DA), and the quality of the Mic Pre Amp used, NOT the sample rate that makes or breaks a great recording.
My 2 cents,
Ed
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scott.
well i wont argue..to each his own.
but no lappie for me right now mate.
i still maintain the current architectures arent up to the task.
i also dont agree that macs leave the pc in the dust.
(useing google search youll see lots of people extremely happy
with the performance of i7 based pc's. )
or that one needs to do 96k or these crazy high rates.
my next machine will prolly be an i7 processor desktop with
lots of ram n two hi performance drives.
just waiting for processor prices to decline.
there are plenty of folks getting low latency on a pc.
just gotta pick the right config n sound device/drivers.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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