Lately I have noticed that more and more jazz and Bossa styles do not "understand" e.g. | Cmaj7 / Cmaj7#5 / |
I know that I could bypass this problem by using E7#5 in stead of the Cmaj#5, but as this 1) will change the bass notes and 2) this is a quite normal "Bill Evans" set of chords,
is there somebody who can please tell my which Real Styles still can play my chances correctly?
Tonnie, when you mention: "Don't Understand", I presume BiaB allows you to enter the chords OK, but the program doesn't play the correct chords.
I guess there's a chance that the RealTracks haven't been recorded with those chords, however, I would check to see that Natural Arrangement is switched Off.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Another thought: Make sure Force to Simple Arrangement is switched Off (although presumably it will already be that way):
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Just remembered, there's a Global Override from Options > Preferences. Maybe verify this setting also.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Have checked all settings as per your two answers, but were already set correctly. So I assume that there are many jazz and bossa real style that just do not recognize Cmaj7#5. But I have (in the past) come across styles that do, so I would just like to know which ones!
Cmaj7#5 is on the list of chords that are allowed to be entered in the chord sheet, but many styles just do not "play" them. I just want to know which ones do!
Tonnie, I'm pretty sure I understand your predicament. I just wanted to cover all possibilities first.
Potentially, there are two ways to move forward: 1: Prepare a list of what RealTracks do / don't correctly play specific chords, so the user knows why. 2: Get the RealTracks to correctly play all chords that BiaB indicates it supports.
I'm definitely leaning towards number 2. I'm not holding my breath though.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I suspected this might be the case a decade ago when I reported a Bossa style in which the piano dropped out on all mMaj7 chords. This is of course a critical chord type in Brazilian music. But when I reported it and a patch came swiftly, I changed my mind and concluded the artist had recorded it; the indexing must have been wrong. But maybe my conclusion from then was incorrect and some styles simply cannot support all ‘supported’ chords.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
When you say that it's not playing them.... if it is a Rhythm type RealTrack and nothing plays at all during that chord (i.e. you just hear silence), that should not happen - that would definitely be a bug.
If you are saying it is playing a C chord instead of a C5 or a Cmaj7 instead of a Cmaj7#5, the most likely possibility is that "natural arrangements" are enabled (Options | Preferences | Arrangements). The goal of this feature is to get the arrangement sounding as good as possible, using chord types and playing that is typical for the style of music.
Note that this is different than the "Simple Arrangement" setting in Song Settings --> the goal of THIS feature (simple) is to draw from specific sections of the RealTracks recording that have less complex playing / fewer notes - this doesn't substitute chords.
Now it is possible that there exist some RealTracks that don't have a Cmaj7#5 or C5 chord specifically, however I just tested several RealTracks at random and they all had it. If they don't, they should still fall back to the best substitute chord. If this isn't happening, which is certainly possible, could you provide a specific example or attach a frozen song file demonstrating it.
FWIW here are the ones I just listened to (Rhythm type RTs chosen at random):
Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Jazz Sw 140 Guitar, Electric, Rhythm SmoothJazzCool Sw16 075 Piano, Acoustic, Solo-Accompaniment PopLite Ev 140 Piano, Electric, Rhythm JazzFunkGroovin Ev16 110 Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm, Country WaltzSw 140
So Tonnie, the OP, can you provide a specific RealTrack that demonstrates the problem? As I mentioned, when I found a similar problem and reported it, PG Music fixed it quite quickly.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Most “jazz” styles can play Cmaj7#5, only the chord tones, cause it plays a weird natural11. To “solve” it and avoid weird mistakes, I write the slash chord E/C. But, you are so right that much used chords don’t play well: like in the music of Bill Evans (13b9, m9b5), Duke Ellington (lydian dominant chord), Kenny Barron (phrygian and phrygian with a natural 13), Hancock, Shorter, Beirach and Liebman (augmented sus chords, lydian and lydian augmented chords, lydian#9)... Renee Rosnes made the wonderful The Modern Pianist disk for PGMUSIC, Biab can not correctly accompany it, so she recorded the bass lines...
To know which scales (chords) BIAB can play, I made this video. But, for the impatient: Bass part knows only 7 7th-chords and ignores, mostly, all alterations. Piano part is slightly better.
If you ask yourself if the realtracks are more accurate, the short answer is: “no”. The whole PGMUSIC “list of recognized chords” is sadly incorrect and -frankly?- dishonest advertising. https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_chordlist.htm
Yamaha and Roland do it a lot better, harmony-wise, but lack the slightly better jazz and latin styles that BIAB has, lack the melody lead sheet, holds, pushes...
Njoy!
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Hello Dzjang, You have an interesting topic, however I don't believe this is what the OP is talking about.
The chord list is just a reference sheet of chords that can be entered into the chord sheet.
You made your own custom MIDI style using the StyleMaker, and are testing it over various chords, and this is completely different from how RealTracks are created.
Well, harmony-wise, realtracks have a better piano than Midi styles, but, as for the bass part?
For bread and butter and camp fire chords, all is well... but for modern jazz harmony (starting with Ellington, Trane, Shorter, Hancock...) there is a lot left to be desired, stuff that Roland and Yamaha have been covering for years.
I understand that some people don’t get the harmonic mistakes. There are some good books by Mark Levine, Jerry Coker, David Baker, that can help shed a light on what sounds good. Though these scholars/musicians tend to have diverging opinions, they all agree on the more common modern chords, like phrygian, sus-chords, altered, 13b9. Some musicians never use these harmonic principles. They love a natural 9 on a susb9, play mixolydian over altered! We call them -lovingly- “The Ones that Never get Called for a gig, or called back after a gig”
Have fun!
Check it out. Dig the screeching harmonic clashes between piano and bass!
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
Thanks for your reply, but there are just too many real styles (especially those with horn backgrounds), that are not recorded with all the chords that can be entered into BiaB.
So I had hoped for an answer, with the name of some real styles, that do play the chords I have entered.
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