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Some semi-random thoughts on the update process.
I believe PG have a number of beta testers and I suspect that they're all very experienced BIAB users, who know there way around the program and know how things should work. That's a two-edged sword, because they also know what _not_ to do so that they can keep themselves out of trouble. It's very likely that, probably subconsciously, they're avoiding bugs into which we less familiar folk can crash. In a past business we had a guy who was, almost pathologically, deliberately naive when testing software. He would do the craziest "why would anyone do that?" things, but he found loads of bugs.
Quite a lot of complex software packages have multiple risk-level option, e.g., Development, Beta, Release Candidate' Release and Long-Term-Support. That is more work to maintain, but not as much more as one might imagine. Whenever I finish a bug-fix in a mature version, typically I compare the old with the newer and propagate that same fix when I can. Unusually for me (I'm a Unix/Linux man), I use WinWerge for that as I find it extremely friendly to use.
As a user, I generally avoid getting the latest new release, as there are almost always lots of bugs. I have no desire to inflict the pain upon myself; let others do it. Either they don't mind the pain, or they'll learn in time.
In my few updates with BIAB, they've usually seemed to me to be pretty shockingly buggy. But still I was tempted in by the upgrade offers. I'm of the opinion that if your new release is likely to have many bugs, then encouraging large early uptake seems like a good way to bring a tidal wave of bug reports, anger and frustration upon oneself.
One of the things over the years in my own electronics and software work, that has both frustrated me and satisfied me, is the comment "Oh, that's really easy, even I could have done that", when one has spent many hours, days, weeks, thinking very hard about _how_ to make it so easy. I try to make things consistent everywhere, even in places where I think the user will likely never go, because if they do, the product will likely behave as they expect. I personally am of the opinion that, longer term, it also actually saves _me_ time, frustration and effort.
The best systems tend to feel like there was one system architect and one vision. It doesn't matter if it's really quite a large team, provided they think together and act together. BIAB feels like one or a few people are given things to deal with and they do so in near isolation. I suspect that is actually _not_ the case, but it feels like it.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Gordon, good points, balanced and well articulated.
Some may disagree with me, that's fine, but the 2021 version needed more development work before the December release date. That fact is evidenced in the plethora of bug-fix updates that have ensued in the following 12 weeks, I think an average rate of about two per week.
The delivery model and alpha test cycle is far from ideal, leaving it up to beta testers to find and report the majority of the real problems.
I like the product, but that is not an excuse for delivering an unsatisfactorily tested system with unproven/broken functionality just so it is in time for Xmas.
There. After that I'll probably will never get any of the bugs I find and report fixed ever again. That will be my punishment for speaking objectively but perhaps negatively as seen by some.
However, still remaining objective, imagine purchasing any other mature product and being notified from the manufacturer that updates to the product were required no less than 25 times over the next 12 weeks. No. Can't imagine that? Neither can I. I don't think my comments will change anything though.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Good points Gordon and Video Track.
I am of the impression that PG music feel that the biggest and most attractive offer for an upgrade for new and existing customers is to tempt them with a new version of biab with 50 new features, and further more to code is so that you can't have the new realtracks unless you install the new biab, though it may be buggy as hell.
This may not be the way forward at all, as some people on here including myself would buy the the new realtracks for the same price, but would like to have that option of running the new realtracks with the last years stable version as well.
That way everyone could beta test the new version without feeling totally frustrated about the bugs, as the new realtracks would run fine on the old stable version.
I am trying not to be negative here, as I really love this software, but just giving a few thoughts as to how it might be improved for everyone.
Last edited by musiclover; 03/05/21 06:10 AM.
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Some may disagree with me, that's fine, but the 2021 version needed more development work before the December release date.
190 "Fixed" statements so far since that initial 2021 release tends to support that. There were 366 over the 2020 release ... curious number during a leap year :-)
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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This year has been more challenging for fixes, true.
Those of you making good suggestions like marketing ideas, should make a new post in the Wishlist. The developers will see it there and we users can add support.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I am not a coder so I may be way off base here but IMHO the problem stems from the fact that they are using old code and by trying to accommodate some of the user suggestions the code has a propensity to be broken. Its like putting band aids on top of band aids on top of band aids.
I think the staff does a hell of a good job fixing the broken code and I thank them for doing that. But it takes time for that to happen. IIRC this is the only program that I have had for a long time that has not had a complete rewrite. I think that time is now. YMMV
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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... Its like putting band aids on top of band aids on top of band aids.
I think the staff does a hell of a good job fixing the broken code and I thank them for doing that. ... Indeed. I wasn't criticising the efforts and fixes. I do though think it may be time to take stock and have some team meetings. Something else I've learned over the years, generally with software, is that occasionally and with with hindsight, I'll conclude that there was a better way to have done something. What's interesting is that I've quite often started over and complete the better way in a tiny fraction of the time the original took. Hindsight and experience together can move mountains. I can also think of some occasions where we've said "It's a pity we didn't do that earlier, but it's too late now", only to find ourselves saying exactly the same thing further down the line.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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I think PG are doing a great job but as BIAB gets more complicated it gets harder to fix. RB doesn't need anywhere near as many fixes and it is much less complicated. And once you've roughed out a song in BIAB, open it in RB and it does just about everything BIAB does - and some things it does better.
But I wish they would fix the problem of RB not generating loops.......
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Some semi-random thoughts on the update process.
I believe PG have a number of beta testers and I suspect that they're all very experienced BIAB users, who know there way around the program and know how things should work. That's a two-edged sword, because they also know what _not_ to do so that they can keep themselves out of trouble. It's very likely that, probably subconsciously, they're avoiding bugs into which we less familiar folk can crash. In a past business we had a guy who was, almost pathologically, deliberately naive when testing software. He would do the craziest "why would anyone do that?" things, but he found loads of bugs.
Quite a lot of complex software packages have multiple risk-level option, e.g., Development, Beta, Release Candidate' Release and Long-Term-Support. That is more work to maintain, but not as much more as one might imagine. Whenever I finish a bug-fix in a mature version, typically I compare the old with the newer and propagate that same fix when I can. Unusually for me (I'm a Unix/Linux man), I use WinWerge for that as I find it extremely friendly to use.
As a user, I generally avoid getting the latest new release, as there are almost always lots of bugs. I have no desire to inflict the pain upon myself; let others do it. Either they don't mind the pain, or they'll learn in time.
In my few updates with BIAB, they've usually seemed to me to be pretty shockingly buggy. But still I was tempted in by the upgrade offers. I'm of the opinion that if your new release is likely to have many bugs, then encouraging large early uptake seems like a good way to bring a tidal wave of bug reports, anger and frustration upon oneself.
One of the things over the years in my own electronics and software work, that has both frustrated me and satisfied me, is the comment "Oh, that's really easy, even I could have done that", when one has spent many hours, days, weeks, thinking very hard about _how_ to make it so easy. I try to make things consistent everywhere, even in places where I think the user will likely never go, because if they do, the product will likely behave as they expect. I personally am of the opinion that, longer term, it also actually saves _me_ time, frustration and effort.
The best systems tend to feel like there was one system architect and one vision. It doesn't matter if it's really quite a large team, provided they think together and act together. BIAB feels like one or a few people are given things to deal with and they do so in near isolation. I suspect that is actually _not_ the case, but it feels like it.
Gordon, these are brilliant insights! I hope PGM reads this and takes it to heart!
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Gordon, good points, balanced and well articulated.
Some may disagree with me, that's fine, but the 2021 version needed more development work before the December release date. That fact is evidenced in the plethora of bug-fix updates that have ensued in the following 12 weeks, I think an average rate of about two per week.
The delivery model and alpha test cycle is far from ideal, leaving it up to beta testers to find and report the majority of the real problems.
I like the product, but that is not an excuse for delivering an unsatisfactorily tested system with unproven/broken functionality just so it is in time for Xmas.
There. After that I'll probably will never get any of the bugs I find and report fixed ever again. That will be my punishment for speaking objectively but perhaps negatively as seen by some.
However, still remaining objective, imagine purchasing any other mature product and being notified from the manufacturer that updates to the product were required no less than 25 times over the next 12 weeks. No. Can't imagine that? Neither can I. YMMV. I don't think my comments will change anything though.
Excellent points VT! And you always have positive, constructive ideas to offer. I hope someone at PGM is listening! Dropping the product on the beta testers with just a few days to test is a joke. Sorry but call it what it is. If the product were highly stable that might be excusable but clearly it is not. So the "beta test" is of marginal value. The thing that upsets me the most is breaking features that worked before and then not prioritizing the fixing of them. I have songs that no longer work and I have to run two separate versions of BIAB because of this. And your final point is the kicker. I buy and use TONS of software from Adobe CC to MS Office to development tools and other music software. Nothing I have ever used has this many bugs and such a broken new release strategy. As I like to end all of my rants with, the RealTracks are amazingly brilliant! PGM have done something extraordinary and ground breaking! It is something that should go into the record books in the history of music software! It is really that great! I just wish they would fix the software.
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I think PG are doing a great job but as BIAB gets more complicated it gets harder to fix. RB doesn't need anywhere near as many fixes and it is much less complicated. And once you've roughed out a song in BIAB, open it in RB and it does just about everything BIAB does - and some things it does better.
But I wish they would fix the problem of RB not generating loops.......
Bob, I agree they try very hard. And they do a great job on the RealTracks. But this 2021 release is far short of a "great job"! RB doesn't need all the fixes because 1) I suspect very few BIAB users even use it and 2) they don't overload it with 50 new features in every release. One final point, you make it sound like RB is the next logical step from BIAB in song production but that is just not the case at least for me. RB does open BIAB files but it ignores key things like bar settings. And if you are happy with the RealTrack riffs in BIAB and freeze them they don't survive a trip to RB. So it really is NOT a good idea to do too much in BIAB if you intend to take it to RB.
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I had to laugh when Gordon Scott mentioned the person who would do what no one thought anyone might do. In my programming classes, I used the 'any idiot' test. Find someone walking down the hall who knows nothing about programming, sit them down in front of your program with no coaching, and see what happens. It tells you a lot.
There is a point I've raised but I'm no longer sure if it's in this lengthening thread or a similar one, that PG Music released version 2021 around Dec. 1. AFTER THAT we users and testers reacted and made requests (I'm thinking especially about the Utility Tracks) and the programmers honored them. I think this is where many problems crept in.
There are some nifty programs out there where the single-person developer reacts to user suggestions almost immediately. I think PG Music is not that, and should not be that.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I had to laugh when Gordon Scott mentioned the person who would do what no one thought anyone might do. In my programming classes, I used the 'any idiot' test. Find someone walking down the hall who knows nothing about programming, sit them down in front of your program with no coaching, and see what happens. It tells you a lot.
There is a point I've raised but I'm no longer sure if it's in this lengthening thread or a similar one, that PG Music released version 2021 around Dec. 1. AFTER THAT we users and testers reacted and made requests (I'm thinking especially about the Utility Tracks) and the programmers honored them. I think this is where many problems crept in.
There are some nifty programs out there where the single-person developer reacts to user suggestions almost immediately. I think PG Music is not that, and should not be that. Matt I feel like you are looking for an excuse for PGM. This is NOT the fault of the users who just ask for too much! Also, the vast majority of the requests I saw were to fix new features that were not implemented properly in the first place rather than additional features.
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Not remotely complicated as BIAB, as a side project, me and my friend are developing custom software for 15+ years now (still in process) I would come up with idea and logic, he would code. Personal project.
In any case, there are always more issues arise if several things added at once and much less if we add them one by one with testing in between....
I think the culprit of buggy yearly start is that large number of features are added all at once.
I believe if adding new features spread through the year, with testing in between, there should be less headache and frustrations to address.
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So it really is NOT a good idea to do too much in BIAB if you intend to take it to RB. That's been my approach for years. Flush out an idea in BiaB (fast), then move to RB to work in a more DAW like setting. Tend to the details there. There is a learning curve at first, but for me it's way more productive in the long run.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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So it really is NOT a good idea to do too much in BIAB if you intend to take it to RB. That's been my approach for years. Flush out an idea in BiaB (fast), then move to RB to work in a more DAW like setting. Tend to the details there. There is a learning curve at first, but for me it's way more productive in the long run. It is very similar to my workflow, the only difference is that I go to my DAW and not RB. At first it was Cakewalk Pro Audio, then Sonar, and now Studio One Pro 5. But I must add that the BiaB VSTi has made the transaction a lot less painful.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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at least we know the top management reads these threads and i have a certain sympathy with Dr Gannon. users only post on the forum when they have a problem but there must be thousands of users like me who haven't had problems with BIAB 2021 because we use BIAB at a very basic level and then finish in a DAW (RB in my case).
i've been following and contributing to this topic because there are new features i would prefer to see - like greater time signature flexibility - rather than BIAB trying to do things a DAW will do better. or as noted above, fixing longer term problems that affect core functionality.
BIAB is an amazing program for auto accompaniment generation. that's its strength and i think it should play to it (pun intended)and leave some things DAWs do better to the many DAWs BIAB users already turn to after roughing out songs in BIAB - or using the BIAB plugin.
a lot of us don't need 'new features' we just want the core program optimised.
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Thanks for the inputs. We read them all and appreciate any constructive criticism. The recent release (825) in the support area fixes several issues (including the style-change-at-a-bar issue mentioned). We work hard to correct reported issues, add requested features and develop more RealTracks.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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just a quick thumbs up for the new BIAB and RB versions that include 24-bit audio playback, recording, mixing, and rendering and 4X's faster audio DSP processing (using SIMD). these are the kind of things that improve the functionality of the program and are very welcome.
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Excellent point. Separate software from content. I may have to avoid future purchases due to months of bugs. I will buy more tracks and or a new highly stable product. As things stand my only option is to avoid any purchases.
I love the product and have spent a lot of money in the past many years but will not continue until things improve.
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Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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