PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist Make BIAB more useful to contemporary pop songwriters.

Arcade version 2 will allow you to use your own chords and melodies?
I remember there are some intercepted samples in this. How can it use its own chords and melodies?
It's interesting

Lazarus.

i have been spending some time on you tube looking at how song creators use arcade , as the comments bout it intrigued me as to where i might use it in my own songs and its sample libraries and capabilities/features.
arcade is obviously a very creative product.

my conclusion is i dont see it as arcade versus biab.
i see it as another possible complementary tool to ones arsenal of song creation tools.
in fact , due to the large no of samples on tap, a song creator like myself could use the strong points of both biab and arcade to create songs. ie complementing each other. thus creating a synergy tween the 2 products.

BUT ...there is a larger problem for myself as a user, and i find myself thinking deeply more and more about it these days...viz...finding the time to go thru these big sample libraries....to find "the golden nuggets of sound" that might apply to the song i'm currently working on as even the free sample libs are extensive.
(the very kind MarioD pointed me towards some very nice free/small pay sample libs.)

i used to subscribe to computer music mag uk whose dvd's include huge sample packs each month often as well as large nos of nice plug ins....but i stopped, cos i was spending more time evaluating samples and plug ins than writing and laying down songs.

so , in my case i had to make tool decisions, as i have various family responsibilities, and decided to focus on 3 tools viz biab/realband/and reaper.
i also tend to make my own samples thus avoiding any possible legal hassles.

next i'm looking at another sample based product Magix music maker. there is also a free edition i believe.
and see how that compares. once again, on first look ,
it would seem to complement what i might do in biab.
remember biab has a vast no of sounds, thus i often wonder if people really explore them all.

in conclusion , its wonderfull we have all these great tools these days..but, bottom line, from my experience songs are loads of work. no music creation product has a "make me a instant hit " button.
just this week and even today i heard on the pg user showcase even more wonderfull songs done by pg users that cranked me up big time.
listening to the songs it was obvious they came about via hard hard graft.

imho automation (and i'm an ex coder) will only take one so far....the rest is up to us song creators.

best/happiness
om

The current version of Arcade, as I've mentioned at several points in this thread, is no competition to BIAB's chord features. I've written songs with it but I don't like it.

Version 2 isn't available yet but Arcade has sent an email about its major new features of using your own chords and melodies. I'll reserve judgment until I've tried it. In theory, it could be a game-changer and allow you to make contemporary sounding tracks without being locked into the usually boring chord progressions of the backing tracks sold for toplining.

Wading through sound libraries is a great waste of time. As is wading through BIAB's loops and most of the styles if you're writing contemporary pop songs.

I used to finish more songs when all I had was a 4 track cassette recorder, electric piano, drum machine and MT32.

Too many options drains creative momentum. I use lots of other programs with or without BIAB. Pop songwriters these days have to make pro standard contemporary sounding demos themselves or pay someone else $800 to do each one.

I just want a good workflow that allows me to get more pop songs finished. If you write rock, country, jazz or oompah, BIAB makes that quick and easy, with beautifully integrated arrangements. I just want parity for contemporary pop, whether from BIAB, Arcade or anything else.

justanoldmuso:

That's right. A lot of software, plug-ins and effectors will waste a lot of time and affect music creation.
Good music not only includes accompaniment, but also lyrics and singing appeal.
Band in a box can quickly complete the accompaniment. Let's focus on lyrics and singing.
Band in a box has always been mainly guitar.
In fact, if you want to be modern, I suggest band in a box can have more electronic elements and electronic sounds.
In this way, it will increase the sense of modernity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ydlWN9AbIs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoVAiMkJy5M

https://youtu.be/g4ZgZbW9HrI

Thanks for sending those video links. That EDM, dance, house music is exactly what I do NOT want from BIAB! But I think part of the problem is that folks at PG think that's what mainstream contemporary pop sounds like. None of the songs on my list sounds anything like that. PG's 'Modern Pop' styles make an attempt in this direction but they have so far missed the point:

EDM, dance and house music are separate genres from mainstream contemporary pop (personally, I can't stand them!)

I think that accounts for some of the misunderstandings in this thread. BIAB would be no good for house music or EDM. Its creators have better tools for creating that (to me) tedious, irritating noise!

My main point is that we are now at a time when there are more good, accessible pop songs around than there have been since the 70s. They are relatively conventional in structure and much closer to the best features of BIAB. They have fresh sounds, as can be heard in my song list, but please no EDM, dance or house!

Lazarus：

I listened to your list. It's actually some very common pop songs.
But the production method of these songs has changed, not just guitar, drum, bass and piano, but adding a lot of electronic synthesizers. In addition, the chords of those songs are very simple, just one, two, or four.
These are actually in line with the style of electronic music.
But in order to make it easier for people to accept, they added pop to the electronic style.
The vocal mixing mode of those songs is not ordinary, but also various effectors. It can be said that even if those songs have no accompaniment, the vocal effect is well designed.
These are in line with the characteristics of electronic music.
Therefore, if band in a box adds some electronic elements and integrates existing guitars, bass and traditional musical instruments, it will feel great.
Finally, I think dancing music is definitely not noise. It is a music style that young people like very much.
Electronic dance music has been loved by young people all over the world since its birth.
The integration of various musical elements is a good thing. It is also a new attempt.
In fact, I'm surprised that if you don't like the feeling of electric sound, the current band in box can satisfy you, because the current band in a box can make almost any music except electronic music. Including those songs in your list, you can make them. As long as you simplify the chord and add some LOFI electric sound feeling, it will be the feeling you want immediately.

All forms of music are for the expression of human emotions.
Some emotions are suitable for pop songs.
Some emotions are suitable for rock music expression
Some emotions are suitable for HipHop
Some emotions, suitable for EDM, house, trace
SO, it is inappropriate for me to say that EDM is noise.

Lazarus,

So if I hate country then PGMusic should eliminate all country styles?

If I hate jazz then PGMusic should should eliminate all jazz styles?

What is wrong with adding dance music styles to what is already here?

I am not a huge fan of dance music either but if could expand the customer base thus adding more money into PGMusic. They would have more cash to put toward styles we like. Plus with more cash maybe they could do a complete rewrite and include many of the wish list items.

I'm for anything that will keep PGMusic alive and well.

YMMV

SBmix.
you said cant do dance music ?
i disagree. heres why ...
i have documented on ruled paper every single instrument sound in my ultrapak 2020.
each instrument or patch has id plus my comments.
i did this when i first got the ultrapak.
because in any original song it helps me to decide which instruments to use in any songs genre.
thus i suggest you do the same. cos then youll see there are lots of sounds/nuggets that could be used in the dance music genre.

a page per instrument...lets say synth...
then 2 vertical columns synth id and comments whether you like the sound or not.
if you take the time to do this and are rigorous about it you will see there are lots of sounds available for electronic music.

then do this for a dance music trak.
1. open up realband. you have 48 traks.
2. insert a clik drum beat on a trak for tightness.
(see rb menu)...
3. layout chord structure in rb useing dance oriented styles/synth settings ....and start laying down traks in rb. genned from the chord structure.
(right clik over rb trak for options menu}
4. haveing got basic guide bed traks down in rb...
useing synth sounds...
and after cutting/pasteing/copying bits of traks around
for various fx triks.
5. go to your pages i mentioned earlier where you documented which RT sounds you like/patches and test which ones you like best in the song.
6. at this point you might to also use external samples
from a library of sample discs you have or like me create your own samples. just import into a rb trak.

realband has an advantage over any daw...the auto accompaniement feature and trak generation.
i would urge you to explore all its features.
imho you could create any song in any genre from a simple dance music tune to a complex production.
if you did what i did and bought a couple of computer music mag issues you would have access to a slew of added modern sounds and samples and synths and instruments
you could use in realband.

yes i have my own wishes for biab/rb 2022 and critiques sbmix, but i have to be FAIR to pg when i say tween biab and realband, and added free/low pay sample libs any song in any genre can be created.

let me finally end with this comment...and i think its an important point...lets say for 2022 pg brings 100 new contempoary styles to the table. great...i'll take them...BUT i will still go through all the other styles
if i'm doing a contemporary style song, because ive found
from my experience useing pg products over many years, i might miss some 'golden sound pictures/nuggets' otherwise.

best/every happiness
om

Oh dear. I am not suggesting PG should abandon Country or Dance! I expressed a personal preference in parenthesis while making my main point about the difference between EDM and mainstream contemporary pop.

Let me clarify the final point in my most recent post... I am not trying to outlaw EDM, dance and house music from PG. I was asking that token moves in that direction should not be seen as the solution to my request for making BIAB more useful to writers of contemporary pop. "Please no EDM, dance or house" as the SOLUTION to this thread.

Peter Gannon wrote earlier in this thread that PG wants to cater to the market I identified and various PG staff have asked me how to do it. That's what all my posts have been trying to do. The number of reads for this thread suggests that I am not alone in wanting this specific thing from BIAB.

Of course PG are welcome to add dance styles and of course I am not trying to stop them. But that is something else.

Yes, now BIAB can also make dance music.
However, the timbre of the current BIAB dance music is not very good. It sounds very different from the current electronic music.
This gap is not a technical gap, but a timbre gap.
The timbre gap is actually easy to solve. You can solve it by choosing some commonly used dance music, such as kick, plug, bass, lead and ARP.
Since the guitar can be done well, the electronic timbre is actually simpler and easier to please young people.
Input chord and immediately come up with a great electronic dance music. It must feel great.
As for the feeling of today's dance music, listen to the demonstration video of refx nexus or vengeance avenger. You can understand that these sounds can't be heard in BIAB now.

Euro Party
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwuyvzgbyqE

TRAP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAz2h-B46lY



Sounds Of The Summer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbR70S3yl18

edm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ydlWN9AbIs


Tropical House
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoVAiMkJy5M



slap house
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDQ_wDdVzwY

I think it is difficult for pure EDM to join BIAB
Because pure EDM has too many sound effects and repetition, mechanical.
But pop style electronic music will certainly join. It is also a good direction.

SBmix.
once again i disagree.
i listened to all those you tube examples you cited..
and would suggest you delve into both biab and particularly realband in lots more detail.


the genres you cited i was messing around with samples years back when i was younger. i even have an old purchsed copy of ejay round here somewhere. and other sample stuff/software/sample discs etc.
i got a boatload of samples...synths/d n b/modern fx...
dance samples etc etc etc.

the you tube examples you cited from euro party onwards
could all be done in realband useing also a midi
keyboard with vst sample library plug ins...and/or importing from dvd sample packs and then copying and pasteing...to build songs. no big whoop.
any seasoned realband user i'm sure will agree with me.
and i could do the same in any daw...eg reaper that i use.
employing sample triggering and sample manipulation techniques within traks also.

imho realband in particular , plus midi keyboard used for 50 buks plus a sample library from computer music mag
on dvd for 20 buks...and off you go in realband.
just try realband.

and thats me done with this thread. ive said all i can.
just learn realband features.


best
yes i once laid down sample traks too old muso.

I think he wants to create it quickly rather than having to build it up with samples.
That's why I suggested MidiUsertracks , this way you could get a community of younger users sharing tracks and bringing new younger users to Beats in a Box.

I made up an audio one from free samples here and it took a long time but now it's in UserTrack form it will just generate up:
Chillout 01 Ev16 4-4 90bpm

Pipeline.
i'm replying as i have the utmost respect for the effort you put in and the help you give on these forums.

so essentially what we are talking about is cutting out a
step, like i used to do with samples in ejay...see ejay
vids on you tube. ie dragging samples onto a timeline.
which, yes is time consuming.

therefore why not lets go a step further, as follows
(useing arty intelligence in computer software)....
ie..a true instant coffee , minimal work solution.

1. have biab scan the net for the new hot contemporary
pop songwriters and analyse their song styles.
2. then when a user cliks a button called CREATE A HOT NEW SONG, the user fills in the following fields.
a. the name of the songwriter to be emulated.
b. tempo and key maybe ? then...
c. the user cliks a button titled GIMME A HIT SONG.

then biab accesses on the net data bases of samples
and presents the user with a finished song.
if the user dont like it, rinse and repeat till
user is happy.
is this the way people will create songs in the future.
ie minimal effort ?
many people in the past few years pipe have said too many youngsters dont want to put effort in. a popular lament with hiring managers. i dunno how true that is, but, is there a mentality out there ie i'll get the recording gear on a friday, clik a few buttons on a saturday and create a few hits, load up on the net on sunday..and by tuesday i'll be rich and rolling in loyalties.
i dunno....i think i prefer a bit of heartache and work
and things i can control in my song creation efforts.
warts and all.

maybe , in closing mate, what the debate should be...
is about 'how far do users want automation // AI to go in the song creation process.' ? i see this as the real issue for debate.

best
om

The main work in songwriting is coming up with an original song concept, title, structure, hooks, lyrics, chord progression, melodies and harmonies.

That creative heavy lifting will always be there, with or without Band In A Box or any other tools.

Band In A Box provides integrated arrangements in different genres. If your genre is Country, Jazz, Blues or Oompah, BIAB gives you hundreds of styles (with different configurations of bands and pro players).

If your genre is Mainstream Contemporary Pop (not an insignificant proportion of the music business), you can trawl through other styles and find a good Realtrack here and there (I've spent thousands of hours doing that, often ending up nowhere) but you don't have the library of integrated styles of the older genres.

I am proposing that there would be a significant market for PG to provide an equivalent contemporary pop library of integrated styles.

There is no less work involved in writing a contemporary pop song than in any other genre. I would contend that it's probably harder, if you're a jobbing writer trying to create demos to pitch to artists in this very competitive market, rather than a hobbyist writing for their own enjoyment (nothing wrong with that!).

The demo standard required by the industry is so high that we could do with a little help in the arrangements from BIAB styles, played by PG's pro players.

That's the only element we would expect from BIAB - instrumental arrangements for our own chord progressions.

We will still have to supply all the other ingredients of the song listed above, as well as recording and editing and vocals and backing vocals. And that's before you get to mixing and mastering...

No matter how to study BIAB deeply, BIAB now can't make these music.
Because BIAB's electronic voice doesn't work.
Why don't you make one and listen to it.
I'll make another one with nexus. Let's compare.

BIAB search for online songs? Is it necessary for a music software to do such huge data?
Don't you use Google or YouTube
Then, in the next step, BIAB can only be used after network verification??
The reason why BIAB is still popular is convenience. At present, the problem is that the timbre focuses on traditional musical instruments, such as drum, guitar, piano and bass
As long as the timbre is added to some modern timbre, it will be very good.
If you add too many web search functions, BIAB will only go astray and make this simple software more unpopular.
As long as a music software is closely connected with the network, it will not survive for long.
Many people make music, they are off the Internet!

I support your point of view. But as the discussion goes on, I think you have a lot of prejudices about your understanding of music. You always mentioned contemporary music, you also made a list, and we listened to your list. They are all very common pop songs.
Compared with BIAB, BIAB pays more attention to four traditional musical instruments, guitar, piano, bass and drum.
Many contemporary music are electronic elements and vocal design.
Vocal design requires Daw and plug-ins. This is not discussed.
Electronic timbre can be further improved by BIAB.
But you always repeat that you don't like electronic timbre.
There is a contradiction here. If you don't like electronic timbre and think it's noise, you should like BIAB now, but you want BIAB to become contemporary music, which is full of electronic elements. Isn't this very contradictory?
Finally, I still want to say that the song lists you provide are very common pop songs, but there are some electronic elements. In addition, the current music mixing is very good.

It's funny, this reminds me of how I found myself checking out BIAB for the first time, just recently.

I forget where it was, maybe a Logic discussion board, but some guy was developing a computer game and needed music for it. He had absolutely no interest in choosing clips from stock material or producing new material himself, he just needed some free "music" for his game. He spoke of it as it music were a fluid, to be purchased by the gallon. He knew nothing about music and wasn't interested in learning. He didn't really want to have to think about this too much. He just needed some music because games have music.

Others were gently suggesting that he couldn't avoid the creative process TOTALLY, that he would have to make SOME decisions about what kind of sound the computer would be making as his game was played, assuming some relation between the action and the soundtrack. Maybe try to connect up with a musician for assistance?

At some point, "Band in a Box" came up. =8^)

BIAB really can be instant coffee. I've made some pieces just as utility exercise music, my artistic input consisting of nothing but selecting a style and how long the C chord will be played. And yet, it is unquestionably real music, and even sounds pretty good.

I share your concerns about the automation of the creative process by things like BIAB and generative music applications... even as I use every digital tool I can get my hands on to augment my own minor talents.