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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Can someone explain the difference in sound quality between the two? Is there a drastic difference? I understand that the Audiofile version comes with the lossless WAV files for the realtracks. Is there a justification for spending the additional $$$ to acquire the licensing of the Audiofile WAV's ?
What is the Ultra/Everything package using for the Realtracks sound files?
Thanks,
Vince
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The 'regular' versions, not the audiophile version, use .WMA files. Although these are compressed, they sound remarkably good. The difference is certainly NOT 'drastic'.
The audiophile version with the original uncompressed .WAV files is, in my opinion, best used for commercial projects. There have been many threads about this in the past but few recently, so I'll repeat my opinion that yes, I can hear the difference, but it takes good equipment to do so. Noise is additive in a mix, so if you have many Real Tracks it could make more of a difference in a commercial mix. Still, if your final product were an MP3, or a CD played in a car, you would probably never hear a difference.
This is all subjective, and my opinion will be different from others, no doubt.
There is one other small advantage to using the audiophile versions: they regenerate in BIAB slightly faster. The 'regular' Real Tracks are first uncompressed by the program as they are used. However, given the dramatic improvement in regeneration speed in version 2010, this is far less of an advantage than it used to be.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The Ultra/Everything package uses WMA files for the RealTracks, whereas the audiophile version uses WAV files (which are about 10 times larger in size, because that's the way WAV files are). From what I've read, a number of folks here say there is a marked different between the two, and there is, especially if you listen to them side-by-side. But it really depends on what you are going to do with them. Lots of folks use the WMAs live, as well as creating their own recorded songs, and are happy with them. Others will only use the audiophile WAVs. Generally, songs saved as WAV (using the WMA files) sound pretty good; if you rip them to MP3, then you may start noticing the difference, since will have used a lossy conversion twice (once to WMA, again to MP3).
As Mac often says, use your own ears to decide what's best for you. Also, when updates arrive, it takes a lot longer to download WAV files than to download WMAs.
I personally wish PGMusic would save the files using FLAC or one of the other lossless WAV CODECs; that would save about 50% space. I don't know what it would do to performance or it they could use FLAC natively (versus converting to WAV first), but it would be a nice compromise between the two and preserve the fidelity of the RealTracks. My $0.02 worth.
I could be wrong, but I believe the demo files posted by PGMusic are made using the WMAs. It would be nice if they (or someone) posted some side-by-side examples of the same song, created under the same conditions.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Thanks for the responses gents!
Would you happen to know how the WMA's are encoded?
Example:
Windows Media Audio 10 Professional
Windows Media Audio 10 Professional (WMA 10 Pro) is the most flexible Windows Media audio codec available – supporting profiles that include everything from full-resolution 24-bit/96 kHz audio in stereo, 5.1 channel, or even 7.1 channel surround sound, to highly efficient mobile capabilities at 24 Kbps to 96 Kbps for stereo, and 128 Kbps to 256 Kbps for 5.1-channel sound. WMA 10 Pro offers incredible quality for consumers using high-fidelity hardware and 5.1 channel surround sound-equipped computers -– and for consumers playing audio content on their mobile devices. WMA 10 Pro supports streaming, progressive download, or download-and-play delivery at 128 to 768 Kbps.
For more information about the mobile capabilities in WMA Pro and how it compares to other audio codecs, see the NSTL Test Report.
When using 5.1 surround sound audio compressed at 384 Kbps with WMA 10 Pro, most listeners cannot discern any differences between the compressed music and the original pulse code modulation (PCM) files. WMA Pro also offers dynamic range control using the maximum and average audio amplitudes that are calculated during the encoding process. Using the Quiet Mode feature in Windows Media Player 9 and later, users can hear either the full dynamic range, a medium difference range up to 12 decibels (dB) above the average, or a little difference range up to 6 dB above the average.
If a user tries to play back a file that was encoded using the 5.1 channel, 24-bit, 96 kHz sampling capabilities, but does not have a system or sound card that supports multi-channel or high-resolution sound, multiple channels are combined into stereo audio (for example, 16-bit, two channel audio), ensuring that users get the best playback experience their systems can provide.
The following table compares WMA Pro to competing compression technology.
Audio Data Industry Compression* Windows Media* Compression Savings
2 ch x 48 kHz x 16 bits
Dolby Digital 2.0 at 220 Kbps
WMA 10 Pro at 128 Kbps
1.7:1
6 ch x 48 kHz x 20 bits
Dolby Digital 5.1 at 384 Kbps
WMA 10 Pro at 192–256 Kbps
1.5–2:1
6 ch x 48 kHz x 24 bits
DTS 5.1 at 1,536 Kbps
WMA 10 Pro at 768 Kbps
2:1
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
There have been many threads about this in the past but few recently, so I'll repeat my opinion that yes, I can hear the difference, but it takes good equipment to do so.
Thank You for this statement..... 
Quote:
I personally wish PGMusic would save the files using FLAC or one of the other lossless WAV CODECs; that would save about 50% space.
I have mention this a few times also. I use Flac for most of my collaborations & storage, and occasionally also use Monkey's Audio .ape format, which has a slightly better compression ratio than Flac, when needed. It can not be because of the cost of these two, so I will guess that it has something to do with the way BiaB marks & deciphers the sections of the audio file.....
There is a "new" one called WavePak that I have only tinkered with, but it's files are definitely larger than .flac or .ape, even when stripping out all the other "features".
I look forward to the answer about the .wma scheme that is used...it sounds pretty darn good on this end so far! 
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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I've been using nothing but the wma files since RealDrums/RealTracks came out.
I've produced stuff for airplay, jingles, commercials, underscores and CD demos.
Not one customer to date has said a word about any lack of audio quality.
I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding concerning the technology being bandied about.
First, the wma format started out at its inception as not suffering from the problems that mp3 files needed to sort.
Then, Fraunhofer, the original license people of the mp3 format, stopped development entirely several years ago. LAME encoder project kept right on developing and today, IMO is the better codec choice. For mp3's. Nuts -- we are talking WMA here anyway.
There is also another fact involved. If you are recording say, a single track of a lone solo trumpet player, as an example, you do not need "DC-to-Daylight" frequency response at all. The fact is that you could use wmas at a "reduced" bitrate and still capture the vast majority of the sound spectrum that is important enough for our ears to know that it is a cleanly recorded Trumpet. That is just one example. Direct Injected Pedal Steel Guitar or Mic'd Electric Guitar might be more apropos to the users around here. Again, the amplifier/speaker combination itself is actually an intentional bandpass filter in many ways. Most guitar speakers that are considered to be great sounding don't make much if any energy above about the 6K mark and are usually centered well below that, around 2K or so. The bottom end is also truncated due to the need for AC hum filtering, etc. No need here for DC to Daylight, either.
Now here comes the fellow who wants to talk about those delicate harmonics way up there and how they add a lot to the music. I'd like to see that dude's actual hearing test results (grin). Especially if he's over 40. And I can tell him that his soundcard, while maybe able to produce response above the 20KHz mark, is in almost every case delivering that high frequency energy to a speaker monitoring system that is rated out to only 20KHz or so. Couple that with the FACT that he can't hear 10KHz reliably and what do we really have here?
Yes, the WMA format chosen by pgmusic sounds pretty darn good!
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Now here comes the fellow who wants to talk about those delicate harmonics way up there and how they add a lot to the music. I'd like to see that dude's actual hearing test results (grin). Especially if he's over 40. And I can tell him that his soundcard, while maybe able to produce response above the 20KHz mark, is in almost every case delivering that high frequency energy to a speaker monitoring system that is rated out to only 20KHz or so. Couple that with the FACT that he can't hear 10KHz reliably and what do we really have here?
Yes, the WMA format chosen by pgmusic sounds pretty darn good!
--Mac
Mac,
It's pretty silly for you to make assumptions and be judgmental about people without any knowledge of who they are, their experience or their setup. I'm not sure if that comment is directed at me or not but it wreaks of arrogance which I'm sure wasn't intended.
As far as my question as to what method of compression was used for creation of the WMA files, Prior to the version 9 specification, the quality of the audio on WMA files was undesirable. The WMA9 spec introduced WMA9_LL lossless codecs able to sample audio at 44.1 khz (cd) or 48khz using 16bit depth. The new WMA10 spec is capable of 24 bit/96khz (dvd) audio in stereo as well as 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound. What this means is if PG sampled their wave files using the WMA 10 codecs, the quality of the files would be virtually the same as the WAV files for mastering to CD or DVD.
It is not a question of what someone can "hear" in frequency response, but rather how much is lost in the process of mastering due to additional compression, FX and sample rate reduction that can cause phasing and warble or unwanted harmonics in the mix. Hi-Quality hardware DAC's in Apogee and RME as well as Protools HD equipment will represent these flaws whereas consumer grade soundcards won't.
There also seems to be some confusion between sample rate and frequency response. Sample rates are the number of times an analog signal is sampled by A/D, D/A converters to represent the smoothness of the Analog audio curve. These rates are represented by (44.1 - 196 khz) respectively in today's most popular pro-audio equipment. The more samples the smoother the curve, the closer you represent the original sound.
File size also becomes much larger due to the quantity of data being captured at the higher rates. Today's consumer products utilize rates up to 96 khz on DVD audio. The new SACD specification being utilized, can represent rates up to 2822.4 khz. As of Oct 2009, there are over 6000 SACD releases. These are not "delicate" frequencies that the human ear can hear, that is "frequency response" represented by the 10-30 Khz spectrum for which a highly sampled audio signal can reproduce.
Bottom line is I'm trying to decide if I want/need to switch to the "Audiofile" version. Based on your comments on using the WMA's without complaints, I'll give that a shot and see how it goes. I can always upgrade at a later date if the need arises.
Thanks for your input.
Vince
Last edited by Vince Rooney; 12/23/09 08:19 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have the audiophile versions of the first realdrums and the difference is very subtle on my Genelec 1031A via a MOTU 2408 mkIII.
I work mainly for video so I have to change from 44.1 to 48k that is anyway a loss in quality. So I have decided to use the normal versions.
I wonder if the Realtraks are recorded 16bit-44,1K or something better.
Maybe 24bit-96/98k would be a real audiophile format that worths the extra $$$?
Sergino
Bandinabox 2024 standard (2020 Audiophile)
VST3 plugins on Studio One Pro 6.1
Windows 11(SSD) - AMD Radeon R9 5950X - 32GB RAM
MOTU: 2408 MkIII - 24i - Traveler - MIDI Express XT
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Mac,
It's pretty silly for you to make assumptions and be judgmental about people without any knowledge of who they are, their experience or their setup. I'm not sure if that comment is directed at me or not but it wreaks of arrogance which I'm sure wasn't intended.
As far as my question as to what method of compression was used for creation of the WMA files, Prior to the version 9 specification, the quality of the audio on WMA files was undesirable. The WMA9 spec introduced WMA9_LL lossless codecs able to sample audio at 44.1 khz (cd) or 48khz using 16bit depth. The new WMA10 spec is capable of 24 bit/96khz (dvd) audio in stereo as well as 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound. What this means is if PG sampled their wave files using the WMA 10 codecs, the quality of the files would be virtually the same as the WAV files for mastering to CD or DVD.
This is info that I did not know about the .wma format, since I never use it for anything, Thanks!
Now I am curious about it also.....
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
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This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
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Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
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-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
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Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
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- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
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Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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