PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Upper Bank Patch Changes Still Not Reliable

Sorry, John!

How old is too old, that is the question! Ha

I have never tired to play the midi files in my performance list through BIAB. I have only used PT Pro, an old Calkwalk Play List platform, Real Band, or the new laptop. I have only had problems when playing them through the TTS out of Real Band in the new laptop.

They play fine in the new laptop when I run them through my SD-20 sound module because I have to use the midi mapper to send them.

I only use BIAB when making up a file from scratch myself.

I really appreciate your attempts to help! I hope I can return the favor one day - if I don't get too old too fast!

Hi Scott, Silvertones may have momentarily forgotten your issue is with RB because this is the BB forum. But understood the issue may be related to this subject, and I do commiserate. Several of us have had HB issues in both programs.

I just opened RB for the first time since the 2010 upgrade, for some troubleshooting, and son-of-a-gun the upgrade overwrote my custom patches.ini file! Someone here wanna insist it's safe to install over a prior directory? (Luckily I have a backup.)

But you don't need a custom patches.ini file for TTS-1. It is GM2 compliant, and GM2 is in the factory ini file. So you just wanna make sure you've chosen that in the Patch Select dialog. Also in Options=>patch names. If you're going to use the TTS-1 a lot, might help to be familiar with it's higher bank architecture. Not sure why that MSB=121 was chosen for the GM2 higher bank spec, or even if that's an official spec, but the TTS-1 does appear compliant with it. (Creates havoc with my external synth when I forget to switch back from GM2 to the synth patch map )

You may want to start a thread in the RB forum. Some points to consider:

1. Your midi files have patch changes in them, correct? Do they also have the bank controller events? You can check the Event list for each track and make sure the expected data are there. You can also use the midi monitor to confirm that they are being generated in real time. Note that you can have the midi monitor and the DXi interface both displayed while the song plays, so if you have a reproducible anomaly, you may be able to correlate the offending event(s) with the change in the track patch assignment in real time. When you have patch data in the sequence and also a track patch setting, be sure to understand which prevails. (I forget which at the moment, and the test midi file I'm using doesn't have patch changes in it.)

2. You are using RB as a straight sequencer for the midi, right? No BB track generation. Because if the latter, then a style is being invoked, and the style could be sending patch changes (depending on your pref settings).

3. In the midi monitor, you can filter for program change, CC0 and CC32, then right click on any given track and use the patch select dialog to understand if and when bank changes are sent as you make choices from the dialog. Notice that the bank controller changes are not sent until you make a selection from the "variations" box on the right side of that window. (This is flaky design IMHO. Given the complexity of these programs, and the variety of parameters that determine the patch change command structure, I believe bank controllers should always be sent with a patch change. I've mentioned this to support before, but so far, we seem to have only partial implementation.)

None of this may relate directly to your problem, but it may help with a more focused diagnosis. Good luck, Ron

EDIT After reading the next couple posts. I should have said I'm still on XP SP3, so no 64 bit experience with the TTS-1. It does work for me in Sonar 7. Am waiting for new Win7 machine before installing Sonar 8.

Ron, thank you for all the excellent information!

Andrew has gotten involved with the problem and he seems to confirm much of what I have been thinking about the nature of the problem and the probability that it is just not unique to my computer. I have also gotten input from several very helpful people, like yourself, on the forums for PG Music and Cakewalk.

I am using RB as a straight sequencer. All the files I am having trouble with either have actual bank changes or some entry in the MSB and/or LSB columns displayed in the Classic Tracks view, even if there are no actual bank changes in the file. Removing those apparently superfluous entries in the MSB and/or LSB columns seems to allow TTS to play files that have a GS reset in the SysEx msg correctly. Files that have a GM reset appear to be a unique problem that I have not been able to work around yet - however, those files do play correctly using the midi mapper rather than TTS.

I have noted too that the TTS works fine in the few files I have produced with castanet sounds using MSB 121. So that makes me think that the people on the Cakewalk forum are correct when they say that they believe the TTS is fully capable of correctly handling all properly entered bank changes. I speculate that improperly entered or partially entered bank change information may be involved in the problems I am finding.

Ron, I am going to print your msg and go over all the helpful information more carefully. I know it is going to help me. And I thank you so much for taking you time to provide it to me. Scott

I'll make one more comment. MidiMapper should not be used. It's a left over from Win98 and causes problems. Your SD20 has drivers to install but might not be compatible with Win7. The VSCi is not compatible with 64 bit. And maybe the TTS is quirky with Win7 x 64 http://www.pgmusic.com/ubbthreads/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

Thank you for the advice, John. I will try to follow it.

Andrew just told me last night that he is aware of no use for the midi mapper since Win 98 and suggests that when midi mapper is selected as the output driver you are probably just getting the GS Wavetable. And he says the GS Wavetable probably uses the same midi implementation as the midi mapper. So I have to assume the GS Wavetable selection will cause the same problems you refer to that the midi mapper causes.

In my Windows 7 64-bit laptop, aside from the midi mapper and the GS Wavetable, my only options are the TTS and the ForteDXi.

I have used the SD-20 on the job for over two years. I just got a driver for it for the 64-bit Windows 7 system and it works well. So it seems that if I can't get a file to play through the TTS or Forte I will have to set up my laptop with the SD-20 and play the files through my stage speaker system to edit those files. That is what I usually do as a final check of a new file anyway since things always sound different through the big speakers.

Given the circumstances, I don't know of any other alternative, do you?

Thank you very much for your continued advice. I really appreciate receiving it! I am learning. Scott

Well you know what they say about opinions but I'll give you mine.
Of your 3 choices the Forte DXi is the best and works well with Win7 x 64. I just set my friends up.

Ps I'm pushing 60 so don't worry about the old guy jokes.

John, I'll be 69 in April. I try to keep laughing!

Do you really like the Forte sound better than the TTS? On my system it doesn't seem to sound as well as the TTS - maybe I don't have it set up right. I didn't do anything but install it. Is there anything else to do to get the best sound out of it? Scott

I want to thank everyone here who has reviewed and made such helpful comments about the TTS problems I have discussed in earlier posts. But I think Andrew has found the solution and the cause. Let me try to explain it simply - as I am not knowledgeable enough to explain it in the proper technical terms. Please forgive any slight errors.

Essentially the TTS does not change automatically from GM2 to GS mode when a SysEx msg is sent (my external SD-20 does). Roland says soft synths do not recognize any SysEx msgs. When Real Band opens a midi file it usually strips the bank change controllers from the event list and puts the information in the patch dialog area (altho sometimes some MSB or LSB contollers are not stripped and remain in the event list). TTS is by default in the GM2 mode (although you can manually change it to GS, etc), so any GS bank change msg can cause problems.

So, improper or incomplete bank change settings in the midi files can cause the TTS to go to its default settings with certain MSB contoller numbers (other than 120 for drums and 121 for all other instruments). The default settings in TTS in this situation are PC 1 (piano) -unless you have manually changed it to something else on a channel by channel basis. So your instrument can be automatically changed to a piano or, ocassionally, something else, by the TTS when it gets an improper bank change controller.

So I need to go back into all the files and make sure I am getting the right bank change msgs to the TTS. I have a list of all the GS and GM2 bank change possiblities. I suppose that is all as clear as mud! Sorry.

As to the possibility of pitch changes distorting sounds, the TTS help file says if you have sound troubles with the TTS turn down the volume. I initially had my lappy sound set to 100%, but I have turned it down. Andrew says about the only problem people have with pitch bend is failing to enter a zero at the end of the pitch bend strings. I found many such situations in the midi files I have. I think it can lead to the bleeding of sound into the next file played if the proper resets are not entered. And it seems like many programers no longer bother with resets.

Of course, if there is an improper bank change msg on a channel with pitch bend I assume you can get unusual results.

I know I will have more problems of various kinds, but now, thanks to all of you, I feel like I have many new friends who will probably be able to help me find a solution to any problem!

Thank you all very much! Scott