|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199
Apprentice
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199 |
Hi all. I have a Q. re a proposed car audio install I'm in the middle of. I bought a set of ribbon tweeters some months ago to complete my revamping of the sound system in my car. I am encountering some distortion on test use, not in the tweeters but in the parent speaker I am piggy backing them off (ie. I am wiring the tweeters in parallel with the door speaker, as the car manufacturers service manual electrical digram specifies for the upmarket model of my car, which had satellite tweeters). Characteristics of the distortion are as follows: 1. Only in parent speaker, not tweeter. 2. Seems load related- sounds like clipping on musical peaks like drumbeats, bass notes at lower volumes, distortion worsens with volume and becomes more constant. 3. Occurs when crossover in place and correctly oriented. When crossover reversed, no distortion heard but tweeter non functional. 4. When crossover excluded from circuit, no distortion occurs and tweeter functions normally. Here is the link to the current version of the kit I bought. http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?URL=index&ID=CS2339&CATID=15&SUBCATID=459I have the same as these tweeters, branded "Response Precision CS 2339 ribbon tweeter", but the crossovers supplied with my kit differ. They are a small mystery circuit enclosed in black shrink wrap with sheilded wires at each end. 2 of, one per tweeter obviously. All made in China, of course. No Ohmage quoted on the box but on my multi meter they show 3.5 Ohms, and most car audio including my cars sound system is 4 Ohms. Specs quoted on the box are a freq. response of 3kHz - 40 kHz, and crossover slope of 12dB/octave. No expanded spec sheet inside (or instructions FWIW). The car head unit is a Kenwood KDC - MP5039U of ~ 22 watts RMS per corner, ~50W peak per corner. I am contemplating installing the tweeters without the crossover per 4. above. I realise it's a risk but am guessing the worst that can happen is popping the ribbons. I don't routinely listen at deafening volumes, or to very dynamic "doof doof" music, too old. Does this august company have any advice/comments? Cheers, John
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
Well I'm no engineer, but Bill Cosby did some good comedy on cars. His borgenriffers were causing problems.
I'm going to have to chaw over the options for the sound system for the RV though. And I sure hope that is soon. I've started the home renos (well I hire a guy and supervise he and the wife arguing over the hue in the flooring and such.) Once I get close I'm selling my junk, my Archie Bunker chair (couldn't you guess?) and parking the RV in the driveway while we sand the floors, stage the house and flog it for what I hope is top dollar. As I don't have that mortgage thing anymore I'm buying something small, so none of my kids think of moving in. In fact maybe I'll renovate it so the main bathroom is an outhouse and the other is beside my bed.
Car audio drives me nuts. The only time I like it is if it's classical music and I have the piece sort of memorized, then I can fill in the parts killed by the passing semi hauling beer or garbage to Michigan.
I'm sure you are going to get lots of advice. I know just enough to be dangerous.
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
No Ohmage quoted on the box but on my multi meter they show 3.5 Ohms, and most car audio including my cars sound system is 4 Ohms. Specs quoted on the box are a freq. response of 3kHz - 40 kHz, and crossover slope of 12dB/octave. No expanded spec sheet inside (or instructions FWIW).
While the DC ohmmeter check can tell you something about the impedance of a driver of any kind that has voice coils, it won't tell you that much about a Ribbon Tweeter. And, of course, can tell you nothing about the crossover. This is because of capacitance in both, which does not "pass" DC. Your audio, of course, is AC of varying frequency.
Quote:
The car head unit is a Kenwood KDC - MP5039U of ~ 22 watts RMS per corner, ~50W peak per corner.
I am contemplating installing the tweeters without the crossover per 4. above. I realise it's a risk but am guessing the worst that can happen is popping the ribbons. I don't routinely listen at deafening volumes, or to very dynamic "doof doof" music, too old.
Do NOT do that. The tweeters cannot take fullrange at ANY volume level. Without a crossover, those tweeters will not last long. Ribbon design will die even faster without a crossover, although its a moot point. The low frequencies must be blocked from reaching the tiny diaphragms of any tweeter.
John, I noticed one thing you said-- that the crossovers are using Shielded wiring. I suspect that Capacitance is rearing its ugly head here, and throwing your wideband power amplifier into distortion. This is a rather common phenomenon with Ribbon and Electrostatic tweeter systems. Quite often, the actual AC Impedance of them will drop down below 1 ohm! You can't measure that with the simple DC ohmmeter. It would take an Audio Impedance Bridge to do that. But you are in luck, for I have used the Impedance Bridges and Distortion Analyzers on the test bench many times to prove this rather commonly found situation happening with Electrostatic and Ribbon speaker systems. Sometimes the workaround is to use cheap 20 AWG gauge parallel (NOT shielded) speaker wire, about 20 feet of it for each side, coiled up. This can iron out the problem, but in a vehicle, where to put all that wire? Since your crossover already has shielded cable as part of its design, I don't think I'd even want to try that stunt, though. Shielded cable also is capacitance in and of itself, by the foot.
Not being able to put your crossovers and tweeters on the test bench (and very likely removing that shrink tubing and finding out what's really underneath...) I can't give you a reliable answer to this one that wouldn't involve trying to do things that are obviously outside your scope of reference on the subject.
You might just send these back, or write them off and find a simple set of dynamic tweeters with crossover instead.
Or -- you could purchase another smaller power amp and an electronic crossover to place between the two power amps and safely send the lows to the original amp and woofers and the highs to the new tweeter amp and ribbons.
If it was me, I'd likely go with the first choice, standard dynamic tweeters with a simple capacitive crossover. Less $$, less complexity, for about the same performance, considering it is a vehicle.
Bottom line -- This product is not performing satisfactorily for you and you should send it back.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,576
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,576 |
I think you're playing in a gas pond with matches here. I would suggest you take your car and system to a reputable radio installer and see what needs to be done.
A red flag to me is your door speakers. If these are the original speakers then you have a mis-match. If you bought all new speakers for your system then, are you sure the speakers match the freq and output of the radio's amp? Kenwood systems are great, if installed correctly.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199 |
Thanks Russ, John and especially Mac.
The door and parcel shelf are indeed new Kenwood items, 6 inch 3 way in the front doors and 6 by 9 in the parcel shelf. All 4 Ohm. Head unit as stated. I am confident that the head unit and new speakers are fine for compatibilty with each other. I also constructed a subwoofer for the trunk around a Polk 8' bass driver (and powered it seperately with a dedicated power amp). No complaints with the result so far until the tweeter install of yesterday.
I did call the shop where I bought the tweeters for advice (an electronics type store, like Radio Shack) but the counter jockey was even less au fait with electronics than me. I may actually go in today and enquire further. Maybe an alternative crossover is an option.
Thanks again.
J.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199 |
The adventure continues. I went to the auto parts store where I had bought my Polk subwoofer and spoke to Mr. Car Audio Expert. His spot diagnosis was just about spot on. He asked if the existing front door speaker that I am piggybacking signal off (in fact, wiring the ribbon tweeter parallel with) had a tweeter itself. It does- it is a Kenwood KFC - M1632A, a current model.His comment was that if it did, adding another tweeter would upset the woofer in that speaker assembly. He described the symptoms well. On paging thru a very helpful car audio site ( http://www.bcae1.com/) and examining the section on Series-Parallel Basics, it seems that although I wired in parallel to avoid halving the impedence and thus putting the head unit amp at risk, I was wrong about this principle. It looks like the connection I had made was resulting in a total 2 Ohm load. Seems I should wire in series instead. Thus the negative side of the door speaker should be connected to the positive side of the ribbon tweeter, and the negative sisde of the ribbon then sent back to the head unit. Total impedence should then be 8 Ohms as each unit is 4 Ohms. Is this correct and a safe option for extended use? Thanks, J.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Series would be safer than parallel, which indeed would lower the impedance of the two, likely to a point below that which the amplifier is designed to operate.
Sounds like that tech has "been there, done that" -- and is speaking from experience. What he told you sounds right to me.
Just be sure that you wire the series in phase properly.
Amplifier(+) -> Main Speaker(.)+
Main SPKR(-) -->Tweeter(+)
Tweeter(-) -->Amplifier(-)
Note that in the middle there is one wire going from a minus (-) terminal to a plus (+) terminal here. Series.
If each device in this series wiring is 4 ohms as stated, then the total load would become 8 ohms at the amplifier terminals because series is addition, just add all the impedances in the series string up to arrive at the total.
It should work, but be advised that it is not what I'd call a clean arrangement in the sense that the tweeter circuit may (or may not, depending on how it's crossover is derived) affect what the woofer is getting. Hook it up and give it a listen. If it sounds good, it IS good.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199 |
Thanks, Mac. I found the HU's manual which states it will accept a load of b/n 4-8 Ohms. The ribbon is so small a unit that can't believe it will draw much current to work. Will give this a shot today and give you a sitrep.
John
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199
Apprentice
|
|
OP
Apprentice
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 199 |
Mac/others. I have wired (in series) and fired, and it sounds great so far. Adds just a sniff of crispness to the top end range which defines snare and hi hats sounds and also outlines vocal sibilants remarkably- "s" and "t" consanants particularly. No added pathlogical sounds in this configuration. Thanks all for your generous assist.
John
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
Ready to take your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 experience to the next level? Now’s the perfect time! Expand your style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs—packed with a wide variety of genres to inspire your next musical creation.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-9 includes 900 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). With over 3,500 styles (and 35 MIDI styles) included in Xtra Styles PAKs 1-20, the possibilities are endless!
Get the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Get Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 19 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Listen to demos and order now! For Windows or for Mac.
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums58
Topics84,664
Posts782,684
Members39,717
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean