I've almost given up on the Style Picker. Most times I use a song or band to find a style I get a list where the constituents &/or the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style.
I suspect getting additional Real Tracks to make the styles accurate would be more effective & efficient than creating additional styles that are more or less inaccurate.
Advertising additional styles is clever as well as effective as I always look/think about it but I now know it isn't going to result in accurate matches.
I half decided to buy the new styles packs but did a quick search again looking for the styles I like to write within in the 2022 package. There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
One StylePicker preview feature you might find useful is the "Play Using Chord Sheet for Song" area. This preview feature uses the style to playback your chord sheet instead of a premade demo file.
One gotcha' is it will create temporary audio files for the whole chord sheet which can eat up your time when you preview multiple styles. One way around this is to enable the 4 bar preview check box.
Enabling the 4 bar preview check box selects the first four bars of the chord sheet. These four bars likely are not the most interesting four bars of the song. Temporarily program the first four bars to mimic four bars of interest while previewing styles.
I find style demo songs rarely relate to my project. However the demo songs do highlight the strength of program features and instrument voicing.
The "Familiar Song Title" part of the SongPicker window is a relatively recent innovation. I believe it's greatest strength is to help people with little musical background find a tempo, feel and time signature that works with a well known song performance. Closely matching a well known performance arrangement has never been a strong point of Band-in-a-Box.
Here are some real life examples of the works well but not matching principle. The instrumental versions of well known songs heard in elevators (lifts) and doctor offices. Instrumental groups that cover hit songs.
I've almost given up on the Style Picker. Most times I use a song or band to find a style I get a list where the constituents &/or the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style.
I suspect getting additional Real Tracks to make the styles accurate would be more effective & efficient than creating additional styles that are more or less inaccurate.
Advertising additional styles is clever as well as effective as I always look/think about it but I now know it isn't going to result in accurate matches.
I half decided to buy the new styles packs but did a quick search again looking for the styles I like to write within in the 2022 package. There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance.
Yeah, you're right about the less-than-usefulness of the song/band search feature. Every time I try it I typically get a huge list of styles that sound nothing like the song/band in question. And the 8 character filenames are not all that helpful. Even the genre tags are often bringing up lots of styles that seem not well suited for the selected genre.
About the best thing I have figured out is to listen to the style demo and if it sounds promising then demo the style with your chords. Jim's tips above might be very helpful with this effort.
As I see the song-based search, it looks for a set of simple rules that fit a song as performed by someone, not particularly to show a match to the style of that song.
In a way than seems perverse, but then if one wants to do, say, a funk or jazz version of a country song, it gives you more options to audition. Whether that's good or bad is probably in the eye of the beholder.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
A style is what it is and sounds like it sounds. It's a single component of a multi-component process to achieve closely matching and capturing the feel and groove of a song or band.
The original post mentions Using the StylPicker and filters along with searching by a band name or song title doesn't yield good results. I agree. It's too coarse and sparse to provide all the opportunities for an accurate match to a specific band or song.
More parameters are necessary for success. BIAB provides multiple tools and techniques for the user to add additional components to a BIAB style when attempting to match a style with a particular song or band. Adding a single application or combinations of a MIDI Song, Single MIDI Tracks, WAV/MP3 files/snippet sample, Loops, UserTracks and Artist Performance Tracks to an audition, allows someone to possibly get a near note perfect replication of a song or band sound from BIAB styles. That can become a template for a cover, Karaoke rendition or template for an 'in the style of' project.
Forum user Mr. Henry Clarke has several good video tutorials how he uses the ACW or MIDI Files to capture the feel of a song or band so he can use BIAB to create a cover or an original that's 'in the style' of a particular artist or song.
I've attached a screenshot showing some of the additional tools I use that some may not have tried in their workflow. These tools let me search and audition the Play over Current Chord Chart feature in the StylePicker dialog and hearing them in an 'in the style of' a specific song or band's unique sound. With these tools and techniques, I've been able to replicate accurate sound tracks for folks to perform with.
The Rolling Stones and Otis Redding were both blues/Soul genre influenced recording artists but each had their own identifiable sound. No one would mistake the Otis Redding cover of "Satisfaction" as the Rolling Stones version.
Lots of interesting stuff. I really enjoy using BIAB. I'm a little frustrated on occasion is all.
Jim, I'll try the chord sheet thing because it sounds like fun...thanks.
However when the machine pulls up a "lite pop bass" for Joy Division etc. then the limits to stylistic variation in the real tracks becomes the issue. Of course I understand the chances of having a Peter Hook style bass RT are nada and I used that example as an extreme but many styles are a case of mend & make do. Luckily I'm still able to do the bass line myself, or fumble through a guitar thing but not having a JD style drum part would kill off that idea within BIAB and send me to a drum program.
Charlie, You seem to mistake my wish for a lack of understanding of BIAB. I used to use ACW before it changed - it was a useful tool when needed. I do wish it could be more like it used to be OR the manual a little clearer on a) the changes & b) how to use it now. I don't like the Audio Edit function at all as, to me, it's neither intuitive nor a good GUI. I have a couple of other programs that work better for me. I've dabbled successfully with user tracks, my 1st option is always RDrums as many of the midi ones still sound "midi". I'm not too keen on BIAB Midi for the same reason though have had some success with Super Midi Tracks - in fact I used SMT strings, heavily rewritten, for my latest in the User Showcase as the RTs didn't fit.
I return to my point that the RTs used in styles are often not up to the style's needs.
Last edited by rayc; 07/22/2202:15 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
No. No mistake. I've listened to a lot of your User Showcase posts and read most of your forum comments. I know you understand BIAB and you make good use of the product. I agreed with you that the method you describe that you use give less than satisfactory results.
In my case, I frequently search and audition for "Styles that actually sound something like the style name &/or band/song title linked to it."
I simply shared some BIAB tools and techniques and BIAB tutorials I use that successfully help me quickly and reliably find these styles so that you or any user can try if you wish to. I never mention your understanding of the product. What I did do is offer suggestions of options you had made no mention of thinking you and others may find them useful.
Your response indicates you are familiar with most of the suggestions and they don't seem to work for you so you developed work arounds. That's reasonable.
(and NO i'm not trying to be a 'smartie'...just some methods i use)
imho its a catch 22 for pg, if they offered too few styles , people want more. if thousands then people want better search algos which often dont suit some folks , cos everyone is different. from my background in tech. cant please everyone. and search algos will only take one so far.
i notice that some pg users limit themselves to a certain genre or a few styles cos i guess they dont want to go thru a ton/thousands of styles. this is where things go 'pear shaped' for them and imho they miss a huge no of bb sound pictures they could use in a song. 'thars gold in thar hills pardner' lmao. i even completely ignore 'best rt's for this style' ie rt's suggested by bb. i'n not saying i know the depths of bb like charlie, but ive found over the years one needs to create ones own methods for getting best out of bb.
for example…….
once a year i pull out my trusty 3 ring binder with style comments on my fav styles. and once a year i go thru every single of the thousands of styles , including new styles, and update the binder. this way when i start a new song i go to my trusty binder and it helps me make style choices. for example even tho' i'm a 'rocker' in my binder might be a jazz style i particularly like. i do the same with instruments. in my binder are , in a separate section list after list of rt id's with comments categorized by instrument type eg acoustic guitar , or solo electric or whatever. each year i do the same for real drums including any new noting in the binder likes.
re the above i'm sure some will say 'he is nuts' or 'thats a crazy amount of work spending a week updating the stoopid binder' . to which my retort is 'i'm sorry but songs are a load of darn work'. in addition i dont have the budgets of the big 20 million dollar plus recording studios for instrument libraries etc with sometimes just one alone costing big money. particularly given the fact as i was reading recently some musos might be lucky to make 50 buks a year from streaming.
in conclusion my method above using the stoopid binder etc etc has led to the joy of getting many 'happy accidents' from bb style picker which i use extensively..
(what i do also is , once i have my song chord bb arrange down i test out a ton of styles useing stoopid binder which might lead to more happy accidents. bottom line…songs are hours n' hours of grinding work..and computer algorithms only can take one so far.
lets say i'm a new user this year to bb nd i wanna do a song ala doobies china grove and i expect to put into algorithm 'doobies china grove style//rt's//rd'..so all i have to then do is add my vocs. sorry aint gonna happen imho. i found in industry. ya gotta get down n' dirty in the weeds sometimes to get what you want. hth//ymmv//just things that work for moi and my stoopid binder..lol.) maybe my methods might help a new pg user somewhat.
happiness to all.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
<" ... bottom line…songs are hours n' hours of grinding work..and computer algorithms only can take one so far.
lets say i'm a new user this year to bb nd i wanna do a song ala doobies china grove and i expect to put into algorithm 'doobies china grove style//rt's//rd'..so all i have to then do is add my vocs. sorry aint gonna happen imho."> ↑ I think you're spot on except for this comment.
Whether one's attempting to make a unique cover, Karaoke track or accurate backing track, doing a song 'in the style of' or a 'nearly an exact sounding rendition', BIAB has techniques and tools and features to accomplish this in minutes, not hours.
For those that may have an interest in how to do this in BIAB, watch these videos by BIAB user, Henry Clarke or check out Joanne Cooper's web site. She also had a tutorial to do this.
In his video, he uses the drums and once he's located a style that works with the drums, he replaces the midi drums with a close RealDrums track and has an All RealTracks version of the song. (Note: Although there's a new bug in BIAB that causes Mr. Henry's exact method to not work correctly, PG Staff is aware of the bug and state a fix is in the works. Also, there's a work around that issue if you want to follow his instructions. And there's another method to do the same thing that avoids the move/copy command with the bug.)
Here's a link to a backing track I created in the 2017 version of BIAB of the Doobie Brothers "Listen to the Music" by combining a MIDI File, RealStyle and an audio file.
I watched the Henry video and the Doobie backing - thanks.
Henry's system is, more or less, what I do when I'm working from a Midi file...something I do very occasionally when doing a close style copy. HOWEVER it does, hugely, depend on the quality of the midi writing.
When auditioning the real tracks in the style he opted for Henry was listening to both the midi & RD tracks together...then said the drums were busy. Well, if they aren't identical they would sound "busy". Perhaps this was an error and not his usual process. It's probably problematic for new users to hear the drums being referred to as the melody as well but these are small things in the larger scheme. I did learn about splitting the midi though...pity that's the part that BIAB is causing grief with at present.
More "work arounds" that, in some ways, reinforce my OP. BIAB is pretty flexible and being able to track some stuff expands the potential enormously as well as removing some of the blandness that seems to haunt styles.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
I've found the "find song" feature to be utterly pointless. Not once has it ever found a style that is even close to being remotely similar. The crazy thing is I can often find a style, that doesn't come up in the list, that is a far closer match. Unfortunately, manual search is just so unnecessarily difficult and time consuming.
Trying to find suitable styles and realtracks in BIAB is the single worst thing that lets this software down the most. It follows no logic and is just bad from start to finish. I thought the newer style picker might improve things but I actually find it worse than the old one in some respects.
To improve things instantly would be to simply label everything appropriately and allow the filter to actually "filter". Not "here's 30 styles that fit your search requirements plus another 200 which are as unrelated as possible - just adding noise and making sorting and further drilling down such a chore that you can't be bothered.
If I type "rock" I want to only see rock in the category list, if I want "blues" ... etc. I can then dig further by sorting feel, or tempo etc. None if this is possible in BIAB.
I generally audition styles manually to select one that fits the genre I require, using the category filters. Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Around 2014-15 when there were likely 1200-1600 less styles and a thousand less RealTracks, this was a common complaint on the forum. Back then, as it is still today, the forum blamed the StylePicker and the generic and bland RealTracks. Late one Sunday night the discussion turned to BIAB's StylePicker couldn't even produce a particular classic rock guitar song. Dr. Gannon was monitoring the forum that night and joined the conversation and quickly located a style, a guitar soloist RealTrack and completed a chord sheet that rendered a song he posted for the forum discussion. No cutting/pasting. Just a straight forward, stock RealStyle with a Solo guitar...
As I recall, at that time, no forum member had been able to successfully find a style that fit this particular song. Sound familiar?
RayC: "... the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style. ... There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance."
JohnJohnJohn: "Every time I try it I typically get a huge list of styles that sound nothing like the song/band in question."
Lee N: "Not once has it ever found a style that is even close to being remotely similar."
AudioTrack: "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."
Furry: "totally agree with this post. I wasted hundreds of hours over the years and seldom got rewarded. "
MarioD: "Same here!"
Shlind: "And here! I have wasted so much time over this."
This isn't about anyone's opinion. My point is today, as opposed to back then, there's thousands more Styles and RealTracks. The StylePicker has been given a major overhaul and upgrade. Therefore, why can't the StylePicker and RealTracks find a stock Style that is remotely similar, in the ballpark song without wasting hundreds of hours?
My take away from Dr. Gannon's post long ago was because one can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done. Meaning forum users weren't accessing and using all of the tools, features and processes BIAB provided to get the results they were seeking. Dr. Gannon posted an example he presented as an acceptable resemblance to the style and song in question.
I happened to save Dr. Gannon's audio file from that discussion. Dr. Gannon produced his example in minutes using a stock style with a Soloist RealTrack and using the StylePicker filters and the 'Play over current chord chart' feature.
He didn't use the ACW, MIDI, an Artist Performance Track or a User Track. He didn't edit tracks.
How do you folks think Dr. Gannon's example song compares to sounding similar to the song in question? Is it in the ballpark?
If you achieved his same result from a StylePicker search today, would it be a waste of time?
AudioTrack: "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."
Charlie, I appreciate you quoting me, but it's unfair and unreasonable to selectively quote only a fragment of my statement. My statement explained my technique in full: "I generally audition styles manually to select one that fits the genre I require, using the category filters. Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."
I can use the program whichever way I choose, and I can also make a fair statement about the methods I choose and why I choose them.
Your selectivity in only quoting a fragment of my total comment is quite unreasonable and could easily be taken out of context, which appears to have been the objective in such quoting.
Trevor
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
I think it would be really useful to have a Video “step by step demo” on how to go about to set up a best match in BIAB for the feel of each of the two songs: Otis Redding cover of “Satisfaction” and the Rolling Stones version as mentioned in one of the posts above. The video to show each step from start to finish for each song with playback from each step so the viewer can see, hear and understand the impact of each step from start to finish, and also to see how close it gets.
There seems to a lot posts on this issue. Maybe PG Music could include such a video, it might clear out many questions relating to a workable workflow for this.
BIAB 2026, Studio Pro 8, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, ZOOM UAC-2, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
<< I can use the program whichever way I choose, and I can also make a fair statement about the methods I choose and why I choose them. >>
Absolutely! And so can each other poster quoted. Your quote and each of the other quotes are an unaltered complete sentence stating the results returned using the current or past StylePickers to find "Styles that actually sound something like the style name &/or band/song title linked to it."
So if you're saying in context, the method you choose to search "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark." isn't the result you meant. Post a correction. I merely quoted exactly the 'results' you and the others claim which clearly the results posted now are in context to my post of the similarities between 2014-15 and now.
Your method is different from all of the other posters methods and each of their methods is different from each of the others methods. All of you state similar 'results'. My context for your quote was the similar 'results' obtained. Your post and the others are available in their complete text as each of you initially posted for any reader to decide for themselves the context of how the results are reached.
The objective of my post is that posters today, seven or eight years in the future from a previous post with the same issue appears to yield the same poor 'results' even though PG Music upgraded and overhauled the StylePicker and adding thousands of new styles and RealTracks. I attached Dr. Gannon's example from the past post and asked that as clear example of a specific song, genre, title and band, if it was in the ballpark, similar resemblance.
Regardless of your response Charlie, you selectively only chose to publish one sentence from my two sentence comment. The other sentence was equally important to maintain the context of my statement. You should have included it if you intended to objectively maintain context.
I was objective and discussed both methods that I use.
Yes, of course there will be times when suitable styles can be found. You cited one event yourself.
Sigh...
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
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One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
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