Hmmm, I've had some experience with the Berkley School's songwriting system. It seems, in many ways - particularly the new rules of rhyme (family etc etc), to be structured to accommodate rap lyrics and the failure to find a decent rhyme. Then there's the syllable count - only counting the stressed syllables? Really? I've also found that quite a few Berkley grads become fixated on the rules and can't cope with things not following trad western chord progressions etc. If people can take things from the courses that help them be more creative then all is good for them. For those who gets caught in the web of rules it's bad teaching.
Last edited by rayc; 08/04/2212:35 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
Well put Ray. I took the Berklee courses through CourseRA. I enjoyed learning about all the rules but yeah, you need to be able to use them as a guide and not 'the only way'.
I don't believe in "rules". I think sslechta & racyc pretty much nailed it - if you can get some tools to equip yourself with, great. But my opinion on Pattison (I'm not a fan and think he's horribly overrated) is based primarily on this truth:
"I've also found that quite a few Berkley grads become fixated on the rules and can't cope with things like not following trad western chord progressions etc."
I taught a commercial songwriting class at a college locally (until they cancelled the program) and what I always told the students was "the only rule is that there's no rules". Clearly that's an exaggeration, but the point was to get them to think outside of the box and not get locked into bullsh*t like syllable counts, perfect rhymes, etc.
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally. The organic approach doesn't just work for food. ;-)
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally. The organic approach doesn't just work for food. ;-)
I agree to a certain extent, Roger, but even natural talent needs guidance. I'm not saying I'm naturally talented (or even talented at all), but I know that I'd still be writing 4 to 5 minute songs with changing tense, too many characters, poor use of hook, etc. if I hadn't received sound advice from my NSAI song evaluations.
Completely agree, but it's germane to the discussion to point out that there's a difference between guidance and being fed a bunch of "rules". I certainly had a number of mentors when I was getting started, and there's a lot of trial & error until you find a work flow that works for you.
Going back to rayc's initial comment, the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
my opinion on Pattison (I'm not a fan and think he's horribly overrated)
I agree 100%. He is also boring. I took one of his classes and the only way to finish was to speed up the video and try to survive to the end! The other thing I've noticed is Berklee offers "free" classes that are actually excerpts from paid classes and not useful as stand-alone courses.
Going back to rayc's initial comment, the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
[quote=Roger Brown] ...changing tense, too many characters...
To be fair those things are matters of grammar & written language that can, & should, be learnt quite early in one's school life. Plural agreement, tense, choice of "voice", consistency ...another bunch of rules that can be very helpful writing an email or a song BUT if not the initial building blocks are often the polish applied after the creative burst that can help the communication. I'm quite a stickler for those thing in my own writing but many of the songs & lyrics I love disregard them.
Last edited by rayc; 08/04/2205:05 PM.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
... the problem arises when writers start believing they have to write songs they way they are taught or instructed to, and are convinced that they can't deviate from what they've been taught.
Yes, and in things like the Berk courses the rules have to be internalized followed to pass the course as no creative deviation is permitted...all whip & no creative carrot.
Cheers rayc "What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
What I want to know is if T and I are in a plane crash and he dies, can I keep all the gold?
Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
Roger Miller was accosted by an aspiring songwriter once who begged him for some advice. Roger said "Here's my advice. Always keep your small change and your pills in different pockets. I just swallowed 75 cents."
....... "the only rule is that there's no rules". Clearly that's an exaggeration, but the point was to get them to think outside of the box and not get locked into bullsh*t like syllable counts, perfect rhymes, etc.
FWIW, all the truly exceptional writers I've ever known and worked with never read a single book or took a single course on songwriting, they just did what came naturally......
Bingo.... write from the heart and if you have something good to say, it will shine through. AS for following the rules.... they are guidelines to be appreciated but adhering to them as though they are the holy grail probably isn't a good idea.
Listen to the radio in any decade and you will hear people who are breaking every rule in the book and their songs seem to rise to the top regardless because they connect with the soul of the listeners.
They say you should have rhymes in certain places.... something I wrote last year was posted here and I really didn't think about it much....Then one individual pointed out there wasn't a single rhyme in the song.... I looked at what I had written, I read the lyrics again.... they were right... but nonetheless, it worked and resonated well.
Point being..... write. And don't be overly obsessed about following the (so called) rules. Write from your heart and soul and see what happens.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 08/05/2207:34 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
For a plus side of what Pattison offers, a methodological approach helps a writer stay productive.
Since staying productive is a key aspect to writing better songs, I find it helpful to have some technical guidance.
I can understand if you are a Berkley student in a class, the instructor will most likely want you to stick to the practices in the curriculum while your in the course.
However, for songwriting in general, it's not an either/or that you can only be inspired, or only use a methodological approach.
Either way, it's all about the songs, so whatever gets you there, or wherever you're wanting to go, take or leave what you see fits
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!
If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.
PowerTracks 2026 is here—bringing powerful new enhancements designed to make your production workflow faster, smoother, and more intuitive than ever.
The enhanced Mixer now shows Track Type and Instrument icons for instant track recognition, while a new grid option simplifies editing views. Non-floating windows adopt a modern title bar style, replacing the legacy blue bar.
The Master Volume is now applied at the end of the audio chain for consistent levels and full-signal master effects.
Tablature now includes a “Save bends when saving XML” option for improved compatibility with PG Music tools. Plus, you can instantly match all track heights with a simple Ctrl-release after resizing, and Add2 chords from MGU/SGU files are now fully supported... and more!
Get started today—first-time packages start at just $49.
Already using PowerTracks Pro Audio? Upgrade for as little as $29 and enjoy the latest improvements!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday, and 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST Saturday. We are closed Sunday. You can also send us your questions via email.
One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
The other thing I've noticed is Berklee offers "free" classes that are actually excerpts from paid classes and not useful as stand-alone courses.
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean