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My belief is PG Music is targeting new Band-in-a-Box features at the next generation of audio producers I don't mean to sound overly negative but so far PGM has not demonstrated that they are in tune with "the next generation of audio producers" either musically (persistent emphasis on classic rock, country and jazz even in 2022) or technically (outdated, overly complex GUI, convoluted documentation, "50 new features" bloat). I have to agree with that — but I don't think this is a bad thing. I believe that statement also applies to every loops package ever released. They're fine for hobbyists and their 11 followers on various platforms… Those artists who wish to be innovative will roll their own. BIAB lets me do quickly tasks that would take many, many hours in a DAW but I never use it for original composition. Clients wanting custom vanity and karaoke tracks? BIAB absolutely rocks because I never have to reinvent the wheel—and they don't want me to. That's why I bought it in the first place. Thanks to the plug-in, I can get quite creative in Digital Performer without charging the arm and a leg that I'd have to if I began from scratch—what a great addition. Likewise, I can see it as a great performance tool even if I don't. Most of my work does not happen in BIAB, though. It just can't and long droning posts from those who don't see it any other way cannot change that. BIAB is but one tool in a large box for me and I'm fine with that.
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I haven't really been on this forum but I figured this is probably a good topic for me to add my 2 cents too.
I think it is a great idea to add more features to BIAB that lean towards a DAW after all isn't BIAB a Digital Audio Workstation?
When asking the question "What is a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW)" on the internet you'll come up with a answer something like this.
"A digital audio workstation (DAW) is music production software that allows users to record and edit midi and audio on a personal computer."
I would think there are probably thousands of BIAB users out there that don't really want to purchase or learn another piece of software. And why should they? Each year BIAB gets better and better at doing what a DAW does and I for one am happy that they keep doing it.
Shorty
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I haven't really been on this forum but I figured this is probably a good topic for me to add my 2 cents too.
I think it is a great idea to add more features to BIAB that lean towards a DAW after all isn't BIAB a Digital Audio Workstation?
When asking the question "What is a Digital Audio Workstation (DAW)" on the internet you'll come up with a answer something like this.
"A digital audio workstation (DAW) is music production software that allows users to record and edit midi and audio on a personal computer."
I would think there are probably thousands of BIAB users out there that don't really want to purchase or learn another piece of software. And why should they? Each year BIAB gets better and better at doing what a DAW does and I for one am happy that they keep doing it.
Shorty I see your point. However, currently, Real Band is lacking in features and convenience that other DAW's have and can handle quite well. For someone just getting started, and who has BB/RB, sure, it's a great option and will get the job done. BTW.... Cakewalk by Bandlab is giving away it's top of the line Sonar DAW and has been for years. It was the same one that many folks paid several hundred dollars for before it was taken over by Bandlab. So, cost isn't a factor in getting a top of the line DAW.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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BTW.... Cakewalk by Bandlab is giving away it's top of the line Sonar DAW and has been for years. It was the same one that many folks paid several hundred dollars for before it was taken over by Bandlab. So, cost isn't a factor in getting a top of the line DAW. And Reaper is only like $60 with an unlimited free trial. Really GREAT DAW software is available at no cost! Why spend your limited learning time with a limited tool when far better tools are available for free and are as easy or easier to learn? Nothing beats BIAB for creating real tracks (yet)! But I hope they focus all new development on improving and fixing its core functionality and not on trying to become a DAW.
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GH.
Re; Realband.(RB)
much as i admire and respect your musical talents , and bearing in mind there might be new potential users perusing these forums (my major concern) i feel i must offer a rejoinder …lol.
please right clik over a rb trak in traks view , and youll get a BIG LOOOONG menu appear. please show me another daw on the market (even the most expensive) that offer the multitude of trak generation features and other options that rb does in that menu and i'll get it.
even reaper (that I love for many other reasons) doesnt have these features. and i was a reaps user from nearly day 1 when it came out, and made many requests to the reaps devs.
yes rb is a bit of an 'ugly duckling' but under its hood is a lot of neat stuff i havent seen in any other daw.
again let me stress with greatest respect to your deep talents.
happiness/best
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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.................
But I hope they focus all new development on improving and fixing its core functionality and not on trying to become a DAW. I agree!
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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.................
But I hope they focus all new development on improving and fixing its core functionality and not on trying to become a DAW. I agree! As do I. All this talk about RealBand ignores the fact that it is Windows only. PGMusic decided that GarageBand made RealBand for the Mac redundant. GB exists only to sell Macs but its severe limitations make it fairly useless, IMO — fortunately, Logic opens the GB files my band members and clients send me and Digital Performer opens any audio I get from anywhere. The last few years, RealBand has fallen behind the times. It needs a major update or PGM should move on. With the BIAB plugin working ok and decent, inexpensive DAWs readily available, that’s not the worst thing that can happen. And Reaper is only like $60 with an unlimited free trial. Really GREAT DAW software is available at no cost! No it’s not. Great DAWs have the phone support and the back & forth communication that pros require, even Apple’s Logic Pro X (they don’t advertise that but it does). I walk some of my clients through Reaper now and then which is as close as that gets but it’s pretty good cheapware at best. It does not compare with Digital Performer, Bitwig, ProTools, Logic, Cakewalk, Cubase and a few others. Costing $60 doesn’t mean a thing if it can’t do what users need but, if you like and are going to use it, pay the man his $60.
BIAB 2026 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 & M5 MBAir, 2012 MBP
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Really GREAT DAW software is available at no cost! No it’s not. Yes, it is!  One of the examples you gave is even free.
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At the risk of this discussion degenerating even further. The fairly standard answer from many DAW providers is “update to the latest version”. Yes there are DAWs one can pay through the nose for and others that are cheap. Reaper for example has a user group and forums that provide unbelievable support. I’ve not ever felt the need to call anybody when using Reaper.
I prefer Reaper because it is often fairly simple to script and perform tasks that can be quite difficult on any of the other DAWs I have used.
Just this week I bought Cubasis 3 for the iPad. I will be in an area where I will not be able to use my main DAWs for a while so I thought I’d use Scaler 2 on the iPad (pretty much as a learning exercise). When I wanted to register on the Steinberg WEB site it could not accept my email address as it is not a standard address. I had to give them a Gmail jobie. Could not find where to get assistance. Doesn’t look all that good for Cubase which is “top of the line”.
Basically the best support I’ve found when needed is right here at PGmusic. Even then I find most of the answers I seek on these forums.
My thoughts
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 09/08/22 10:16 PM.
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Really GREAT DAW software is available at no cost! No it’s not. Yes, it is! One of the examples you gave is even free. No software is ever really free. Someone, somewhere, somehow, is paying for it. Often it's the developers giving up their "spare time", sometimes it's sponsors, sometimes it's funded by donation.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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Let's not forget that biab HAS a lot of old CODE/SCRIPT hangovers that need to be tied to make it a thoroughly stable program as it is and that the glued on additions to the annual upgrade need to be more thoroughly beta tested, yes, I know there're lots of beta testers at present but they don't manage to slow the Oct/Nov juggernaut r"roll out.
Reaper, Sonar et al are very stable even when there's a PILE of open source additions available & incorporated ...or perhaps that is why the open source stuff is so prolific. Pipeline has demonstrated many very successful, stable scripts that work around the instabilities and ancient problems while moving the prog forward & demonstrating that BIAB can do even more BUT the foundation needs to be stabilized.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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All.
sigh..i'm going to the trouble of posting this (like many of my posts) cos i KNOW there might be people new to recording and/or new to pg products reading posts.
and let me say , i speak from the 'heart' having used loads of gear over the years from 'super expensive big lad toys' down to the junkiest of junk gear.
(let me preface the following by saying i have lots of experience but only do daft songs for enjoyment i dont hold myself out as a super pro audio engineer.)
ive had these discussions with many "pros" over the years in a collegial fashion.
(and they were superb, seasoned AE's and taught me lots.)
so my opinions…
1..a newbie wanting to get into songs is told by some on a forum 'well the pro's use X' or 'your not a pro unless you use Y'. so little newbie trots off to the gear store and spends a ton of money or his/her inheritance from 'uncle fred' or whomever.
now said newbie feels 'comfortable'.
'man this is great ive got the same gear the pros use'. over the years on many recording forums ive seen the above play out.
of course once the newbie gains experience he/she realises that there is a lot more to the song biz.
and let me say many newbies have said to me over the
years 'i wish i had spoken to you first before blowing a wad of money on gear'.
the point is there is lots of marketing 'guff' when it comes to gear, and i contend if
reaper or realband or biab were the only products on the market a great like George Martin would still do great songs cos thats their FORTE'.
look what they used to do with 3 traks, hit song after hit song… and powertraks does 48 traks for a pittance. (so some new people think 'man it cant be any good' ' i gotta go spend lots more' etc etc ) cos then 'l'll be in the big leagues.)
2..i wonder how many people take the time to really dive into the reaper.fm features and manual (and the stash ). the same with realband features/manual here on pg.
from many questions ive seen on both forums i would suggest lots of people dont bother. thus they get frustrated. this stuff is not a fridge or toaster.
3..imho one can find fault with any app..BUT i challenge ANYONE to show me another daw that has the features and agility of reaper, ALSO i challenge anyone
to , in realband , right clik over a trak and see the VERY UNIQUE looong list of great generating and other options that rb affords as i said up thread.
in SUMMARY i often ponder how many have taken the time to 'plumb the depths of both reaps and rb…(and biab too.). YES there are flaws. but show me a music software that doesnt have flaws. per any daw user forum.
how many have plumbed the depths of reapers STASH ? how many have bothered to read the rb manual etc.
one has to do this, cos irrespective of app this biz aint 'trivial' in fact its 'blinkin complex' no matter what developers do in coding. and therein lies the true fact.
use what you want to do songs , my preferred solution is BIAB + REALBAND + REAPER. and proud of it…lol.
in closing i agree with Teunis (particulartly first para)...and Gordon (great comment) and i agree with Ray , pipeline is a superb talent with scripts etc..
happiness // peace to all.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/09/22 03:19 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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As I have said in the past share your workflow and if it helps someone great, if not also great. But lets not argue over what is the best workflow. There is only one best workflow and that is the one that works for you.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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...and i contend if
reaper or realband or biab were the only products on the market a great like George Martin would still do great songs cos thats their FORTE'.
look what they used to do with 3 traks, hit song after hit song… and powertraks does 48 traks for a pittance. (so some new people think 'man it cant be any good' ' i gotta go spend lots more' etc etc ) cos then 'l'll be in the big leagues.)
Yeah, well George Martin had Lennon/ McCartney and George Harrison writing those songs and John, Paul George and Ringo playing them. Not to mention Norman Smith and Geoff Emerick recording and mixing it all.
Byron Dickens BIAB. CbB. Mixbus 32C 8 HP Envy. Intel core i7. 16GB RAM W10. Focusrite Scarlett 18i 20. Various instruments played with varying degrees of proficiency. https://soundcloud.com/athanorsoundlabs
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i contend if reaper or realband or biab were the only products on the market a great like George Martin would still do great songs cos thats their FORTE'.
look what they used to do with 3 traks, hit song after hit song… Brilliant point! I recall something I read where David Gilmour was asked about how he achieved his signature sound and he said something to the effect of he could walk into any guitar store, pick up any guitar and amp and sound like David Gilmour! On the flip side, I read about an engineer who said he was on staff in the studio where the Stones were recording and during a break he went into the room to give Keith's guitar a try! He was unsurprised to hear that his playing on that guitar did NOT sound like Keith Richards!
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Byron.
RE..Martin n ' the lads.
good comment and' i can't disagree cos both my wife and i have worked in organisations where by 'chance' the right group of people got together to create something wonderful.
often with very few resources. just sheer guts n' hard work often '24/7' where everyone gets 'bleary eyed'.
maybe its the right alignment of the planets or my wife and i have often wondered if its 'fate' laughing at us all….lol.
let me add ive seen on various user forums user complaints about their music software they use daily. Problems are often setup of sound devices n' drivers etc tc. and often the fact people just wont study the manuals etc in an in depth fashion. just human nature.
with daws i think its cos there are sooo many features in each daw to absorb.
it just concerns moi that some people critiqueing a daw ..how much have they really delved into a reaper(look at the forum...hundreds of thousands of posts..so must be doing sumpin right !) or say a realband.
believe me if there was better i would use it.
Mario.
kudos and good comment. i always respect you and your highly creative songs.
John.
its just a crazy world lol. the KEY is to just have a great time.
there are many similar tales ive been told by AE's.
eg a band was so stoned in a session, the AE's had to fix
up the traks overnight etc. before next session.
best
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/09/22 09:33 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Well, my hopes that this wouldn't turn into the Real Band Fan war game thread were dashed.
The same arguments, the same IMHOs, the same challenges, the same caveats, the same new users argument.
Almost all current DAWs are excellent, some are OS specific, some have greater prestige through price and others are "industry standard" for excellent or dubious reasons. WE have choices to make and being exposed to decent reviews and "testimonials" can help with that if you know & trust the source - rather like mix advice.
Going from BIAB to a DAW makes sense.
Going from BIAB to RB to a different DAW seems a little convoluted for me but if it works for you - do it.
Staying inside BIAB is certainly the preferred method for many posters in the User Showcase Forum...it's quick, easy and the desire to make things sound less generic or add some difference isn't prominent.
There are industry preferred ways of doing things - like NOT mixing with stuff on the stereo bus, NOT mastering from within the project etc. which we don't often discuss because we are amateurs/hobbyists who have our "way" of doing things and because of "work flow" preferences, or because it's easier or we don't hear a difference.
Few people are prepared to change their opinion on much. Convincing folk to use RB or another DAW is something needed early on in their experience...before habits and "work flow" are settled. Getting anyone to work only within BIAB as a DAW would require that it become as logical/intuitive/straight forward or has a manual that really covers everything CLEARLY. That would also need to be before they'd found VSTs they prefer to work with.
I'm please that so many folk are keen enough about audio recording &/or song writing to argue about these things but come the revolution/come the climate disaster/come decrepitude it won't even be dust.
And then there's the other "level" of (ab)user..."Great DAWs have the phone support and the back & forth communication that pros require..." The statement is full of self aggrandizement followed by "...but it’s pretty good cheapware at best." Ah, tool/[*****] comparison time standing on a rock being king of the pebble. I regret toggling ignore...ever wonder why no one engages with your comments?
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Rayc.
let me say i wish everyone here only the very very best. and enjoyment of their music creation journey.
i think it fair to say we both agree that reaps is a fab daw//tool. right ?
where we might differ is realband (rb). fair ?
let me just mention one very 'tiny' feature of many why i like rb.
(lets remember rb is free.)
lets consider midi trak editing and moving small or large numbers of midi bars around.
i think it fair to say various people would use a piano roll or notation feature in a daw. fair ?
(i'm lousy at notation..lol.) and i think it fair to say many musos might find these features in a daw "fiddly'. certainly in my case and musos ive talked to in the past. fair ?
now rb (like powertraks) has a feature called 'BARS VIEW". which biab doesnt have,...
(which is why i posted a 'wish' re biab for this feature recently.)
now why ages ago did pg devs implement this feature ?
i dunno , all i know is i can do a bunch of neat things with it re midi bars, and save me fiddling with other options. i find it very useful.
am i being fair ?
there are many cute little features like this sprinkled through rb. and thus if someone doesnt read the rb manual or dismisses rb easily for whatever reason (maybe cos its free) or cos they read something on the net somewhere re rb thats a pity imho.
this one feature alone has saved me time over the years.
why do i defend rb , even if it doesnt have the 'fancy graphics' of other daws ?
cos it has many neat features like the example cited.
fair ?
please note YES i have probs with rb occasionally , hence i post a wish in the rb wishlist.
i ponder re people knocking rb have they gone thru the rb manual and given it a 'fair shake'.
i too found it a tad 'idiosyncratic' sometimes when i started with rb...but i persevered and found lots of neat stuff.
i hope you find above fair comment.
i defend rb only cos i'm worried pg might drop it, and thus i lose interesting features that help me in a song.
best//happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 09/09/22 03:01 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Rayc.
let me say i wish everyone here only the very very best. and enjoyment of their music creation journey.
i think it fair to say we both agree that reaps is a fab daw//tool. right ?
where we might differ is realband (rb). fair ?
let me just mention one very 'tiny' feature of many why i like rb.
(lets remember rb is free.)
lets consider midi trak editing and moving small or large numbers of midi bars around.
i think it fair to say various people would use a piano roll or notation feature in a daw. fair ?
(i'm lousy at notation..lol.) and i think it fair to say many musos might find these features in a daw "fiddly'. certainly in my case and musos ive talked to in the past. fair ?
now rb (like powertraks) has a feature called 'BARS VIEW". which biab doesnt have,...
(which is why i posted a 'wish' re biab for this feature recently.)
now why ages ago did pg devs implement this feature ? i dunno , all i know is i can do a bunch of neat things with it re midi bars, and save me fiddling with other options. i find it very useful.
am i being fair ?
there are many cute little features like this sprinkled through rb. and thus if someone doesnt read the rb manual or dismisses rb easily for whatever reason (maybe cos its free) or cos they read something on the net somewhere re rb thats a pity imho.
this one feature alone has saved me time over the years.
why do i defend rb , even if it doesnt have the 'fancy graphics' of other daws ?
cos it has many neat features like the example cited.
fair ?
please note YES i have probs with rb occasionally , hence i post a wish in the rb wishlist.
i ponder re people knocking rb have they gone thru the rb manual and given it a 'fair shake'.
i too found it a tad 'idiosyncratic' sometimes when i started with rb...but i persevered and found lots of neat stuff.
i hope you find above fair comment.
i defend rb only cos i'm worried pg might drop it, and thus i lose interesting features that help me in a song.
best//happiness.
om
I don't know why you miss the point so frequently and completely. Spruiking RB isn't the point of the thread, nor is defending its granularity. I'm not going to try to convince folk about Reaper...anyone who has an unbiased perspective and gives it a crack, other than Mike, will know it's good. I accept that you use & like RB, I accept that David milks it for what it can do for him & moves on, I accept that it doesn't work for me. You haunt the wish lists with decent suggestions and you offer kind comments for song posters but, it seems to me, you get caught up in your own enthusiasm about double tracking and Realband. On the other hand I don't see you adopting any new suggestions about mixes or DAWs. The flagellation of deceased equine discourse on RB could be saved until there's a newbie who'll benefit from a 1st DAW suggestion or a new feature that really makes the other DAWS merely equal. You've good ears, experience to draw upon and share as well a generous turn of commentary phrase & I appreciate those.
Last edited by rayc; 09/10/22 02:17 AM.
Cheers
rayc
"What's so funny about peace, love & understanding?" - N.Lowe
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 3,676
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 3,676 |
Rayc.
this is my last post in this thread as i'm concerned about the direction this thread is taking..
instead of collegial debate focused on product.
My only objective ever is pg product longevity and improvement and success. whether biab or rb.
re you said…'I don't see you adopting any new suggestions about mixes etc'
if your commenting on users posted songs asking for comments...…
imho from my experience i feel this is the purview and expertise of pro mastering engineers. which i am not.
fwiw , given my time available , i will over time post various tips and tricks and topics related to my usage of RB (which other rb users can contribute to if they wish.)..in the hope that more new users realise the power of the rb product and its depth. ie tips like in my post in this thread , in that case the subject being the highly useful rb (and also powertraks)' bars view' imho which i suspect not a lot of people know about , particularly if rb has never been opened and is just sitting there on a person's pc.
i'm outta here.
best.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs(90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
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Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
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Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
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Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
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- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
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- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
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- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
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- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
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