Does anyone else see a need for the Utility Tracks to be treat the same as Legacy tracks with respect to bar settings and volume control?
I wasn't a BiaB user when the distiction between legacy and utility came into being so I'm sure there is a lot of history here. But I find it quite clunky to have to go into the AudioEdit window and add in nodes to mute a utility track that I might not end up using.
Note in the screen shot that the "Piano" track is not on the Bar settings list.
I also notice that WendyM is currently struggling with this (or a related issue) so I'm guessing others struggle with this too.
I'm aware that the individual tracks can be exported and then imported into a DAW where you have full control over volume levels. I'm doing this more and more in Studio One thanks to MarioD's comments. But when sketching out song ideas in BiaB quite often I need a quick listen to see if the track is even worth keeping in the song. So to export, import and adjust a track in S1 only to find I don't like it is even less efficient.
Is there a reason why Utility tracks are "2nd class citizens" ?
Last edited by Bass Thumper; 10/17/2208:34 AM.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
We’ve had many discussions about this and I think you are correct. The conclusion we came to last year was that the natural evolution of ‘all tracks are equal’ means that major changes in BIAB are required to make Utility tracks function as the legacy tracks do now.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
< Does anyone else see a need for the Utility Tracks to be treat the same as Legacy tracks with respect to bar settings and volume control? >
Not at all. That's a step backwards. Besides, PG Music developers made all the Legacy Tracks work the same as Utility Tracks with respect to Mute/Unmute and volume control that provides greater accuracy and control and it's nearly universally ignored. The Bar Settings and Volume Control tools are better in the Utility Tracks than the coarse, rudimentary controls of the Legacy Bar Setting Dialog Window.
< Is there a reason why Utility tracks are "2nd class citizens" >
Yes. It because folks prefer to export files to DAWs for simple editing tasks even though it can be done faster and function's exactly the same when doing them in the Audio Edit Window.
Counting exporting to a DAW as an option, there are ten other tools in the Audio Edit Page to treat a Utility Track instrument volume. The most used and recognized method is 'export to a DAW' followed by volume automation and I speculate 90% of users can't name all ten.
Charlie, I completely disagree with your opinions.
1)Settings at the bar for Util tracks will save a lot of time, especially for sketching out stuff. ACW is great, but it is for fine editing. And will take ten times slower to do same in Settings at the bar. And if you change number of bars / insert bars, good luck re-volume everything. They are different features, and I hope that both will be available in future.
2)There is absolutely no reason for Utility tracks not to gain full functions of legacy tracks. Especially Shots, Holds, Rests. Offering existing "workarounds" for these is no go, as they are absurd.
A Big +1! to OP post.
Utility tracks have been evolving, but not there yet. To make full use, they have to match capabilities of legacy tracks, there is no doubt about it. I hope that this is something in the books for 2023. Or at least a good step forward, either Settings at the Bar or Shots, Rests, Holds and Pushes. Hopefully both
P.S. Bass Thumper, I don't like "workarounds" when it involves core functions, but I thought you should know that you can use ACW to node control volumes of instruments for now for Utility tracks. Not ideal solution compared to quick and easy "Settings at the bar", but at least doable. Actually, if proper automation is programmed to ACW in the future, I would prefer that instead of Bar Settings. But that is another discussion. There is a benefit to ACW as you can adjust volumes precisely. If you are not aware of the method, see attached.
I am much more worried about Shots, Holds and Rests for Utility tracks. I hope it is being considered as the workaround for these is very painful and for the sake of sanity, I will not even mention it here
To be equal, I suppose the legacy tracks and utility tracks must work exactly the same way, but I see Charlie’s point and I was very careful not to commit to supporting a particular solution. Making a few dozen tracks all controllable by radio buttons and F5 would be a serious rewrite.
PG Music has not stated how this will be handled, to my knowledge, and I can still see some version of ‘separate but equal’ being plausible. If the slogan ‘all tracks are equal’ had not been used, and instead they had said something like ‘new this year, additional tracks for storage’ there wouldn’t be the fuss over ‘equal’ and we would just get our work done.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
Matt, Radio buttons: "a few dozen" - 2 dozen + through and master I am fairly certain that most people who came to BIAB in the past 10 years do not use radio buttons. (this would actually be an interesting poll) While I read users arguments "for" them, a sensible solution would be to be able to hide... and reveal this bar, which is taking valuable screen real estate and has absolutely no meaning or uses to most newcomers. There are several ways these radio buttons can be handled. For example 1) all can easily fit in two rows 2) display only those, which tracks are occupied. 3)A custom number.
F5 Menu: I made and shared a mock sketch some time ago and they should all fit on screen with slight rearrangement of existing buttons. Again, there are "ways" to do this ergonomically pleasing. For example dynamic sizable window, similar to what we have with mixer, or choose a custom list of tracks to be displayed, etc.
While you might disagree, extra tracks was/is one, if not the most significant features in BIAB for me and I am sure many others. Hoping that PG team will find a good way to handle volume/mutes in bulk and solve Shots, holds, rests for Utility tracks.
If the slogan ‘all tracks are equal’ had not been used, and instead they had said something like ‘new this year, additional tracks for storage’ there wouldn’t be the fuss over ‘equal’ and we would just get our work done.
Yeah, claiming a new feature that obviously is not true is always gonna cause a "fuss"!
Charlie, I completely disagree with your opinions.
I agree with Rustyspoon 100%!
No surprise. Misha didn't even mention the issues (in bold lettering) I responded to in my reply.
The subjects I addressed were specifically directed to the volume choices that can currently be made in the Bar Settings Dialog Window (F5) in comparison to Utility Track Bar Settings choices.
There's no question that Utility Track equivalent Bar Setting selections are finer resolution and more accurate than the Bar Settings selections. There's no question that Utility Track options that have also been expanded to apply to the Legacy Tracks and offer multiple methods to use to manipulate Utility Track and Legacy Track audio.
So when Bass Thumper wasn't satisfied with the clunky audio automation function, you guys didn't stay on topic and explain any alternatives to him, the conversation strayed off topic about "all tracks equal" and Misha presented a laundry list of shortcomings that were not mentioned in the original post. Regardless of the interpretation you fellows thought you read in the original post, the topic was clearly stated. The phrase "all tracks equal" isn't mentioned in the original post nor my reply.
The cause of the issues listed in the first post is Bass Thumper only knew of Volume Automation for the track he was working on.
If I go into a recording studio, the mixing console has the same set of controls and features for every channel. I think that is the consistency we are possibly looking for.
Separately, if I know I don't want the guitar to play on measures 9 to 12, on Legacy tracks I can easily do this with <F5>, before I ever need to generate. This is not that straightforward with a utility track, I need to use a completely different method to achieve the same result.
Without getting into a debate, 'consistency of operation' across all tracks is really what is required (I believe).
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Charlie, Actually I wrote my "laundry" list, as you coined, before you posted yours. It just took me more time to prep graphics. And when I saw your reply before posting, I responded to it.
I believe, I replied to OP questions and voiced my support for his request.
If I go into a recording studio, the mixing console has the same set of controls and features for every channel. I think that is the consistency we are possibly looking for.
Separately, if I know I don't want the guitar to play on measures 9 to 12, on Legacy tracks I can easily do this with <F5>, before I ever need to generate. This is not that straightforward with a utility track, I need to use a completely different method to achieve the same result.
Without getting into a debate, 'consistency of operation' across all tracks is really what is required (I believe).
exactly what I'm looking for. A drop down in the F5 box showing ALL enabled tracks. Wendy x
BiaB2022PLUS,927. every extras pack I can find ;-),Sonar7XL,Win 10
If I go into a recording studio, the mixing console has the same set of controls and features for every channel. I think that is the consistency we are possibly looking for.
Separately, if I know I don't want the guitar to play on measures 9 to 12, on Legacy tracks I can easily do this with <F5>, before I ever need to generate. This is not that straightforward with a utility track, I need to use a completely different method to achieve the same result.
Without getting into a debate, 'consistency of operation' across all tracks is really what is required (I believe).
First, let me say that I consider myself a BiaB newbie that stumbled into the issue of not being able to mute a utility track in the same easy way that I can with legacy tracks and therefore requested a wish for this to be improved even though there is a (clunky in my opinion) work-around. I have no clue as to the historical background here and why this is the case.
Second, I apologize if my original post was not as well articulated as it could have been. And being the newbie that I am, I would never presume to be knowledgeable enough to specify how this wish should be implemented. There are contextual, historical, user-base, software and other ramifications that I will never be privy to. This is the domain of the experts. In any industry, multiple factors must be balanced, including customer experience with the product.
Third, AudioTrack captures very well what I tried to express. Because workflow matters, my brain appreciates intuitive and consistent software design.
Fourth, my interest is for PG Music and their awesome flagship product to be as successful as possible in the ever-changing and competitive domain in which they operate. There will always be competitors nipping at their heels. This (in addition to achieving smoother personal workflows) is why I offer suggestions in the wishlist.
Fifth, (an element dear to us bass players) let's pay it forward, share the love and work toward the common good.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
"I apologize if my original post was not as well articulated as it could have been."
It is very well articulated.
"Because workflow matters, my brain appreciates intuitive and consistent software design." "let's pay it forward, share the love and work toward the common good."
Bass Thumper, this is like many threads: it goes in several directions, provokes reactions, and helps to clarify what we want. It's good you brought it up again, as PG Music alone needs to decide how to make the next improvements.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
+1 for being able to easily mute/unmute Utility tracks on a certain bar without having to remember how to do it in the ACW automation. If I'm already muting tracks in the F5 Bar Settings menu or in my DAW, then I really don't want a 3rd place to manage it which I find takes longer to locate the exact bar to work on.
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