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I just started listening to a history of Jazz online course I discovered on iTunes. The author makes a distinction between Jazz and Improvisational Jazz. Jazz being the more formulated genre and improv being more of the departure from the formula. I was wondering if any jazz players would like to discuss some techniques on how they begin with a formula and then depart from it and into improv.
What I want to learn is if I take a simple chord progression like: I, VIm, IIm, V, which chord(s) in that phrase would I modify to make it swing more? The instructor in the class took a simple song in, "Mary Had A Little Lamb." He played it once straight to form. Then, over the next several times he and his accompanist went off on a trail that was beautiful. But, between the guitar accompanist walking a bass line while chiming in with a chord here and there and the melodist (a trumpeter) jumping off the chordal phrase to add and resolve tension that it lost me.
I know that there are more genres of Jazz than there are people in the world. What I am most interested in is understanding the swing and big band styles where the horn/vocal led the melody.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
RickeG
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Quote:
What I want to learn is if I take a simple chord progression like: I, VIm, IIm, V, which chord(s) in that phrase would I modify to make it swing more?
Any ideas?
Thanks,
RickeG
Here is my take, while there are numerous variations/substitutions to the 1/6/2/5 (for example replace the dominate V chord with it b5 substiture) which can lead to a chomatic progression from the IIm - b2 - Root. However, none of these will necessary impact the tempo and feel which is swing. Jazz Cats can swing sitting only the root, and don't need no changes at all. Swing is a timin thang!
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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You are right, Dan, about the tempo in swing. I guess what I am trying to figure out is the logic behind how one would take a basic pattern and add the types of flavor that makes the basic pattern come to life. Going back to the example of Mary Had a Little Lamb. I mean, how much more simpler of a song can you get with that? But, by the duo's third round of the phrase they are just bouncing all over and having a good time with it.
Being a guitarist, and looking at a chart that has the dry chord configs of say 1-6-2-5, what possible alternatives should I be seeing that would bring that loop to life? I just chose swing as a means of tempo. It can be Bossa, straight 4, 6/8, waltz, etc.
When you say b2 for example in the key of F are you referring to a "Gb" chord or adding a b2 to the Gm chord?
Thanks, Dan, I appreciate you taking the time to guide me in this area. I have been really enjoying the jazz practice songs that came with BIAB. But, I as I study the movements, nothing has jumped out on me yet within the several songs I have looked at. Take any genre and you can immediately find the pattern. Oldies: 1-6-4-5, Blues, 1-4-5, etc. I am trying to see establish an understanding when I hear a Jazz player speak of using a "turnaround" what that actually interprets to in that ending phrase for example. I am sure there are dozens of them. What I would like to know is the logic behind how these turnarounds came to be. Often they are playing a chord or two outside the key of the song. So, the logic of standard key signature conventions are thrown out the window. I hope I am not losing you on this.
Thanks,
RickeG
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Quote:
When you say b2 for example in the key of F are you referring to a "Gb" chord or adding a b2 to the Gm chord?
Thanks,
Quick reply, that’s all I have time for now. What you are leading to is what I have "tried" to study for the past 15 years  !
But for now:
The b5 substitution (which is the also called tritone substitution) for a C7 (which is the V chord in the 1, 6, 2, 5, 1 where 1 is F) would be the Gb7 (which is the flat 2 of the F Major scale). With this new chord the progression goes from:
F, Dm, Gm, C7, F
to
F, Dm, Gm, Gb7, F
You have replaced the V chord in the sequence with its b5. Notice now how the root notes of the final 3 chords walk down in chromatically. Can add spice to standard progression
So in any key when you see a Dominate 7 chord simply replace it with its flat 5 and add some extra flavour.
Did this all on the fly (no guitar in my lap) so if I am incorrect on anything folks can …AND WILL  , jump in to correct me.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Quote:
Being a guitarist, and looking at a chart that has the dry chord configs of say 1-6-2-5, what possible alternatives should I be seeing that would bring that loop to life?
Thanks,
RickeG
One big option that the Jazz Cats utilize is varying chord voicings. For a simple C - Am- Dm - G - C (1, 6,2,5) there are a ton of different ways to play (voice) the chords. For example triads (Major - 1, 3, 5) or (Minor 1, b3, 5) of each of these chords exist all over the neck.
Then think chord inversions, the root does not always need to be the bass note (first inversions 3, 5, 1, second inversions 5, 1, 3) . Jazzers like these voicings since it can put the root notes on the higher register strings to make them standout in a melody. Then again if you have a bass player, the guitar does not even need to play the root, think (3, 5, 7) or a whole series of rootless voices.
Then there are the extensions, which add a #9 or b5 or 13th.
When you can play a Cm chord in 6 different voicings over the neck you wil discover you really have colors and flavors you can add to any tune which calls it out.
Here is where I put the big plug in for my alma mater. Check out Berklee On-line School of Music www.berkeemusiconline.com. Chords 101, Chords 102, Jazz Gutar 101 and 102. And you will be on your way.
Dan
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Quote:
I just started listening to a history of Jazz online course I discovered on iTunes. The author makes a distinction between Jazz and Improvisational Jazz. Jazz being the more formulated genre and improv being more of the departure from the formula.
Probably time you posted the link to we can see exactly what has caught you attention. 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Are you familiar with Billy Bauer's two small books on the sounds of the triads which has great exercises for developing ones chord sense all over the neck. It's been reprinted by his widow and family and was featured on Yahoo's Jazz Guitar Group discussions...a great place to discuss this topic, btw. As basically a jazz singer, I find myself all over the neck with chord fragments/inversions...sometime I even comprehend what I'm doing, taking apart a "Standard" chordwise, while attempting to groove with a nice "simple" background progression. Wish I could give you more source material or input, but I'll leave BIAB and real tracks to motivate you, at least making practicing much more fun. BTW, i added quite a few videos to my webpage tonight...the home page was also "invaded" (at my doing) with a bunch of my fav Metheny approaches. I love that ol' Roland GR-303...the last video on the home page has him roaring along with this baby, which I still pick up regularly for it's jazz sound and synth controlling abilities...my fav recipient of midi being a Yamaha ES 88-key Motif!! http://www.thegigbaby.com
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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This little chart opened up a new world for me when the light when on. After this I no longer had to strum a C Bar chord for four beats to a measure (I had two C chords up to then - bar with Root on 6th string and Bar with root on 5 string - you know them). Now I could moved with the music by playing C in 6 differenct positons on the neck. By keeping the C limited to the triad I had better control over my contribution to the band with no more big booming bass notes added when not needed. 
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Thanks Dan and GDaddy.
GDaddy, the course I have been listening to refers to what you are on this discussion. The author refernces Louis Armstrong to creating his trumpet style birthed out of his vocal techniques. And much of what has developed has come from that principle. I love the melodies. It just comes down to what makes those melodies so appealing is the accompaniment of the chords behind it.
Dan, I am definitely going to dig into the Berklee link you left. It is good to know that I am in good company with another player out there that loves this stuff. I have done chord inversions for a number of years so to create another sound beside the root based chord. One guy that I have an eye in watching is Joe Pass. He, like Wes Montgomery, have nailed what I want to aspire to in that they have the ability to play melody and chord movements in the same time. So, you see where I am going with my inquiry is if I can understand how these chords inter-relate I can begin to venture into how to create melodies within a series of these chords.
The next time I listen to the program I will try to get the link for you. I found it by chance on the iTunes-U page. It was the only music/jazz course and it seemed quite extensive in that it goes into the history back to the beginnings of how the banjo was used first because the volume was greater than an acoustic guitar. It then goes into how the acoustic became electrified along with some absolutely incredible players from the 20's & 30's. You know the term "shredder" is often what you hear when teaching the "youngin's" the guitar. Mounds of distortion on top of overdrive with anything left going into delay and reverb; now you are "shredding." These guys back in the 20's & 30's were swifter than anybody today with all the processing only they did it raw on an acoustic guitar.
Gdaddy & Dan, when you get the chance, do go to iTunes-U and look up jazz class available. There are some 75, 15 minute programs that are aired out of Atlanta, GA. The author's name is, "Dr. Gordon Vernick." The program is called, "Jazz Insights." You check it out.
I will spend some time over the weekend looking over the Berklee chords 101, 102 and jazz guitar info, if they have any free topical stuff available. Thanks again for the chord options. I am going to be toying with them as well over the weekend.
Thanks,
RickeG
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BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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FABULOSO!! Also includes great link to forward this to musician friends.... Thank you my Chicago Brother!! http://www.thegigbaby.com
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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Thanks Ricke... that's a good find. I enjoyed it.
BTW, Mr. Jazzmandan... Nice Chart too!
2008 Gibson ES-339 Custom & 2010 Les Paul Traditional. Fender SCXD Amp
BIAB/RB 2015 UltraPAK + Ketron SD2
Windows 7/64 Intel i5 3550 PC, Tascam USB144MKII
Behringer X1204 Mixer
Bose Companion 3 and/or L1 II w/T1 + SM58 MIC
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