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When ear training for intervals, a common method is to recall the first notes of well-known tunes (Twinkle Twinkle for the perfect 5th...What Child is this for minor 3rd).
Despite years of playing and practicing (or mis-practicing), I often have trouble knowing how the next chord will sound - or maybe I'm not being fair to myself, but if I know a melody well, I have trouble quickly getting my fingers to a chord that works well for the next part of the melody).
I was wondering if - assuming it does not come naturally to you - there are methods to learn to identify common chord progressions more easily. I was thinking a method similar to learning intervals might exist for chords.
...and...I realize the most common I-IV-V, I-IV, I-V progressions are pretty much in all of our ears - I'm talking the next level and beyond : )
As always - TIA
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Here is a site that may give you some insight into your question. The site shows many chord progressions and lists hundreds of songs containing them. https://www.hooktheory.com/theorytab/common-chord-progressionsI believe that there are over four thousand chords with a zillion more voicings. I don't have the math skills to count the voicings. I bring up this voicing issue because, for me, at least, if I hear even a simple C chord and I also need to play that chord, I may not recognize that it was played in the root, first inversion, or second inversion. These voicings are not always played because they sound the best but because they may be faster to get to or easier to play. Many melodies are based on major and minor scales; each note in the scale is the root or tonic note of its own chord. These chords are common chords assigned to the melody. There is a lot you did not say in your post. Are you playing cover songs or writing original music? Knowing what chord to play in a cover song that you may know the basic melody line to depends on what other people in the group are playing. A little more information from you would be helpful. Billy
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Journeyman
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One of the best things I learned from many excellent guitarists is to be able to sing the melody of whatever it is you are playing. A key distinction is someone like George Benson who sometimes is singing as he is playing. He is actually singing first and playing what he is singing if that makes any sense. You should, without your instrument in your hand, be able to sing what you want to play. Such as when improvising, if you can sing it, then try to play what you sang. Now what I am talking about is not chords per se, but single notes. But it should work for chords as well. I like to play stump the band when I am playing guitar in a crowd. They shout out a song and I try to play it, in many cases, never having played it at all. I do it by first thinking of the melody, I usually pick an easy key, C, G, etc. then having thought of the melody and guessing that the song will start with the root chord for the key I pick it out.
IF you have played for years, you usually can tell which chord is next just by the melody and "hearing" the song in your head. Some of them are harder, but most times you can tell that you need a dominant 7th, or a minor chord, diminished or augmented etc.
You will find with a little practice you can do it. Also you sometimes find an interesting arrangement that maybe you didn't think of before because you choose the "wrong" chord. It may have not been what the sheet music said it should be, but it sounded really good in the song. Those are fun accidents.
Probably didn't answer your question, but I tried?
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Thanks for your constructive comments - yes, playing cover songs without a band, just by myself in the basement lol
The hooktheory website is excellent - really, I suppose everything I need to learn to do this is in front of me - I just have to focus and listen more closely, and memorize more.
I want to get to the point "IF you have played for years, you usually can tell which chord is next just by the melody and "hearing" the song in your head. " - but it seems like some of my friends were there a long, long, time ago and I just haven't really progressed very far in that area.
For all the music lessons out there, I think very few focus on this as an intentional goal - of course interval training does to some extent - but it seems to be something that is not typically formally taught...unless I have missed something.
Also - hearing I-V with certain inversions is something I find difficult - if I play bar chords in the 3rd position - say C to G - I might recognize that change in other contects, But to my ear, C to G/B has an entirely different sound and feel - I can't hear the commonality unless I play the root notes...then I hear it, but not the "I-V" sound of the former. Of course, I've heard C to G/B change so many times, now I hear it in all keys....maybe it is just exposure and practice.
Last edited by Joe V; 12/24/22 09:49 AM.
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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For all the music lessons out there, I think very few focus on this as an intentional goal - of course interval training does to some extent - but it seems to be something that is not typically formally taught...unless I have missed something. Can you tell us what "formally taught" means to you? There is a great deal of exactly this kind of interval training when you study along a music degree program in college. It is taught in both vocal and instrumental pursuits. But through it all, there is never a replacement for experience. I used to cheat when I went into class and pick up the payphone (Yes, I am that old) outside the classroom an listen to the dial tone. The modern dial tone is an F. I walked into the room with that F in my ear and could easily hear intervals. However, what is a 4th and what is a 5th is theory you need to know or being able to identify intervals means nothing. The next thing you will likely be asked is "What is a Bb the 4th (or 5th) of" and you can't answer that, that reveals a lot about what you don't know to the instructor. Circle of 5ths, steps of a scale. etc... I remember years back the band I played reunions with was learning Bowie's "Let's Dance" and the bass player made the comment "And that's where it goes to the B". and I lost my freakin' mind. I screamed at him "TAKE A MUSIC CLASS ALREADY!!! This song is in Bb minor. There is no B in a Bb minor scale. It NEVER goes to the B. It DOES go to a B FLAT. Those are not the same thing. You don't know how hard it is to be here when you don't speak music!" But that's just me. LOL! Remember, as has been discussed to death here, NONE of that is necessary for you to strum a guitar. It just makes it easier and for seekers of knowledge, more enjoyable. It's hard to answer questions like this without knowing what your endgame is and what level you are at. I honestly don't even know what you really mean by "memorize chord progressions". That's all part of the circle of 5th topic. If your ear can hear a 4th and a 5th, no matter what the root is, then you already know how. But the difference between the root and 4th, when the root is a C and the 4th is an F is going to sound very different from the difference when the root is an Ab and the 4th is Dd. The start note doesn't really matter, and if you can only recognize the interval when the root note is a C, no list in the world will teach you much. I'd start here. Start with the basic one, then move to the expanded. It will really help you with understanding what is behind ear interval training.
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Cover tunes often do not stay in key. What chords the writer used may not be quickly apparent. I would have to have some idea about a song to "quickly" figure out the chord structure. etcjoe is a monster guitar player and knows a zillion songs. So all that may be very easy for him. For many of us who are less advanced and have a computer connected to the internet, there is a much easier way to find the chord structure of a cover song. Just google "chords and lyrics to" whatever song you want to play. Most of the time, you can find the tab also. As an experiment, I picked a cover song at random from Taylor Swift called "You Need To Calm Down" https://youtu.be/Dkk9gvTmCXYThis is an example that happens often. There is no guitar, and there is no piano to listen to. So now you have to figure out the chords by the vocal and the synth. I usually don't listen to Taylor Swift, so I have never listened to that song. Perhaps for some folks, this would be easy to figure out. As it is only two chords it is not really that hard but.... Google...the results in 20 seconds. [Verse 1] D You are somebody that I don't know D But you're takin' shots at me like it's Patrón G G And I'm just like "Damn, it's 7 a.m." D Say it in the street, that's a knock-out D But you say it in a tweet, that's a cop-out G G And I'm just like "Hey, are you okay?" [Pre-Chorus 1] D D And I ain't tryna mess with your self-expression but I've learned the lesson G That stressin' and obsessin' 'bout somebody else is no fun A N.C. And snakes and stones never broke my bones So...all this theory and studying like a madman seem somewhat pointless if it only will be put to use alone in a basement. If, on the other hand, you want to play live with a band and they start playing a song you don't really know all that theory and hard work will give you the ability to play "something" that will sound good and blend in. Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 12/24/22 04:51 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig?
“Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
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Joe,
I see that Eddie has already posted about the Circle of Fifth's. That was the first thing I thought of when I read your post. It's probably the most important tool in the realm of music theory.
In 2010 I created BIAB mgu's under the title of Circle of Fifth's Practice files and it covers all of the keys. Each key has 7 different BIAB mgu practice "songs" so there are 84 files in all. They're based around diatonic progressions.
The files cover each of these topics in each key.
1 Diatonic Progression
2 Diatonic Progression w/solo
3 Diatonic Progression - Root Melody
4 Diatonic Progression - Root - Third Melody
5 Diatonic Progression - Root - Fifth Melody
6 Diatonic Progression - Root - Third - Fifth Melody
7 Diatonic Progression - Scales and Modes
I used to have these posted in a shared file on DropBox but I let my account expire and I haven't bothered setting up an account elsewhere. I did post a link to them on the forum in 2010 so I'm not sure if anyone downloaded them or not. If you did you may already have them under the folder named Circle of Fifth practice Files. The folder size is only 545KB.
I may get around to posting them publicly again or I may not. If you want them just send me a PM with an email address to send them to and I'll get them to you.
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If I do repost them publicly I'll post a thread on the forum so if anyone else wants them.
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Journeyman
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I remember years ago seeing the circle of fifths in a mel bay book and I said, wow somebody took the time to write this down! I was so stupid. I taught myself most everything I know from books and learning songs. I think that is the best way anyway. Learning songs allows you to put it into practice right away and you find out that most songs are very similar in structure and the theory is always evident once you study it a little bit. I think learning songs from the records helped me tremendously with my ear. Having to listen to those Chet Atkins licks over and over and figuring out where he was on the neck etc. What I do now is make up a playlist of songs I don't actually know how to play in BIAB or Real Band using the juke box function and then try to pick the melody based purely on memory. Yesterday I did it using Christmas songs since I already know the tunes basically, so it is just a matter of finding the key and then picking out the melody. It never comes out perfectly, but the idea is to stress your ear and find the notes quickly and accurately. It always helps to sing it out. As I mentioned before that skill is tremendous. All the best guitarist I know, can sing a melody and then play it. Knowing scales in all the positions really helps too. Most popular standards stick to the scales (major or minor) for the most part with only a few outlying notes here and there and those are usually easy to pick out as they give such a unique sound when paired with the chord.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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Bob, I have a huge collection of those types of practice files too. Many came from the old Yahoo BIAB user group now on Io Groups or whatever it's called.
My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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My wife asked if I had seen the dog bowl. I told her I didn't even know he could.
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As always - thanks for all of your useful, constructive comments - I've learned and discovered so much from all of you.
May 2023 be the best year yet for all of you !!!
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