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Need adwice about mastering background music for film. #105862 02/17/11 09:03 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Hi again out there. I am making some slideshows, and want to have some background music on them Together with some commentary (voiceovers) On the old Zoom studio that I had ( which I sold) there was a mastering preset called ( Background music) But like I said I sold the studio, so it is not possible to go back and look at the settings for that preset. I have tried to find something about how to master for background music on the net, but was not able to find anything useful. Is there someone out there who can tell me a little about how it is done? and also, would you "carve" EQ holes for the voiceover in the music. ( The voiceover is done in a later and seperate stage) Best regards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105863 02/17/11 10:09 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA	Where will the slideshows be used? Online? At seminars? What will they play back over? I would leave the voiceover iself to be handled by ducking if possible, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern. Background music is just that; background. Don't try to bring out the bass, or cymbals, or anything that may distract from the voiceover, the idea is to have the music there, but not have the user notice it. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. rharv #105864 02/17/11 10:39 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Quote: Where will the slideshows be used? Online? At seminars? What will they play back over? I would leave the voiceover iself to be handled by ducking if possible, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern. Background music is just that; background. Don't try to bring out the bass, or cymbals, or anything that may distract from the voiceover, the idea is to have the music there, but not have the user notice it. Thank you rharv. I have not thought to much about where the slideshows should be used, I thought that bacgrond music should be treated the same way no matter where they where used? I agree with you that background music should like you said be in the background without the listener notice it. but I thought it was more to it than just take the volume down. I remember when I listened to the preset "bacground musik" on the zoom studio that it sound "distant" not only like a track where the volume was down. There seems to be a "rule of thumb" for mastering any genre of music, and I thought there might be some guidelines also for background music on documentary films.? But maybe it is like you said only to not bring out the bass or symbals. Best regards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105865 02/17/11 10:55 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,151 Aiea, HI, USA lkmuller Expert
lkmuller Expert Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 1,151 Aiea, HI, USA	Video editing programs have multiple audio as well as video tracks. Place your background music on one audio track and the voiceover on the other. You should be able to edit the audio within the program also, i.e. levels, cut and paste, etc. Music Page

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. lkmuller #105866 02/17/11 11:22 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Quote: Video editing programs have multiple audio as well as video tracks. Place your background music on one audio track and the voiceover on the other. You should be able to edit the audio within the program also, i.e. levels, cut and paste, etc. Thank you Ikmuller. The editing, like audio levels,cut and paste etc is not a problem. It is more a question about EQ I guess. Best regards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105867 02/17/11 11:38 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	rharv is correct in that you should think about the playback systems for your slide shows. Are you simply going to provide these online, or will they be shown using PA systems for playback or in movie theatres with a full multi-channel surround system, etc.? If you cannot specify the playback system, then more important is the orchestration and arranging; not the EQ settings. rharv again is right that the voice-over should be handled by either ducking, or manual volume envelope adjustment of the music tracks in the video editing suite that is being used. If you are just shooting for the 'distant' kind of a sound, an easy way to do that is both with volume as well as EQ. Just put a fairly steep downward to the right slope on an eq to simulate a sound coming from a distance - coupled with a decrease in volume. High frequencies attenuate in air more rapidly as a function of distance, than do lower frequency content. This is why distant thunder sounds just as a 'boom and rumble' while thunder that you hear from a nearby lightning strike has all the 'crack and snap' in it as well as low frequencies. But likely this is not exactly what you want to accomplish - particularly if your soundtrack will be played over laptop speakers, which have nearly no low end capability. What is the type of slide show, where is it played, etc. help to determine the type of orchestration and arrangement needed. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. rockstar_not #105868 02/17/11 11:53 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Thank you Rockstar-not. It wil probably like you sai mostly be plaed over Computer speakers, but Like every music I would like it to sound good on most systems. The orchestration will be symphonichal. ( Chlasic music. It will not be a soundtrack, but more a "Score" ( A musichal "bed" that "Runs" in the background.) Last edited by Tono; 02/17/11 11:54 AM.

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105869 02/17/11 03:16 PM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,386 Mi., USA	What you need to do isn't really mastering. The background needs to fit a certain niche and is 'pre-mastering' really. You want the track to sound as good as it can on the system it will be played on, and in the context of the finished product. . Then the mastering would occur as the final step, including the vocal narration. Zoom may have called it a mastering preset, maybe even just to save space... Many manufacturers, if you know the model, have a lot of those preset settings included in the manual. It may be in a format you are not used to, but it is sometimes there in all the MIDI information near the back. If you know the model, it may be possible to see what settings they were using, then at least have an idea of a starting point to emulate. Last edited by rharv; 02/17/11 05:55 PM. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. rharv #105870 02/17/11 05:38 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	My team made many videos / powerpoint / slideshows. It is preferable to write the objective in clear language. Then the program is designed to achieve your objective. I/ we worked in 3 areas, different teams. 1. Fire Officer or Recruit Training. 2. Service Employee Training (hospitality, hotel, bar, restaurant, etc) 3. Masonic type education. I will expand on item 1. We (a team of 6) designed the courses for a 16 week (one week every 4 months) officer training program. It was very obvious to all of us that there was a huge resentment factor to having to take any training as their peers got there by seniority. Thus the initial day was to get these people to buy into the whole program. Imagine a bunch of macho guys walking into a building, not understanding the ...is it really...flower scented candles. Then dim lighting, classical music, louder, images, slideshow and video, a disaster from a large fire dept. that lost a bunch of guys. Why.? But the music was selected based on how it affects you, the volumes ebb and flow with the slide show. We met our objective, for after 1.5 hours of a program none of us spoke. The images, the video and the music did their thing. Rachmaninoff, Mahler, and others were all part of the program. In a video editing suite (Avid or Pinnacle are what I a familiar with) you can pull up or down the levels. It is good to boost them first and then pull them down when you need to. Any Avid or the Pinnacle program will let you do this, a voiceover, and 2 sound tracks. We called a break after the intro and it was rare to see a dry eye. Guys who thought it was BS realized that they were going to put other people's lives on the line, that it could kill people who were brothers and friends. In fact, not one word of introduction or orientation took place for over 2 hours, it was music, and images. Change images on the beat. The whole thing was a canvas. Once we got the concepts right it was extrapolated to all our programs, and turned into a huge positive. The Training Department went from a joke to a respected and cutting edge organization, all because we fought budget cuts by demanding high end technology. They took 250 k out of the budget and we got 55 of it back for cameras, computers, software, etc. Never sell short your ability to use music as a lever. Our approach was classical oriented, but depending on who is you audience, it can be anything relative. Pay very close attention to dynamics. Eschew modern attempts to make everything loud, music has far more impact with the proper use of pianissimo and forte. Even if you are aiming for lighthearted, music is the key. Life without music is an unimaginable tragedy that I hope I never meet eye to eye or ear to ear. The sad thing is that as the music dies your brain makes up stuff you never wanted to hear. I have been thinking of making a recording of that, for it should wake some folks up, and make them take care of what they have, rather that heading to that of which they know nothing of. (the latter phrase with a tip of the hat to William Shakespeare.) TC and remember, all the world is a stage, a canvas, go work on it. Write the script, get help to polish it, and unleash it. Great Fun. Don't forget the soundtrack stuff PG put forward a few years ago, with a Ketron that stuff is great. If you get stuck with an idea and the music you might use, shout out here. Lots of good help. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. John Conley #105871 02/17/11 11:41 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Thank you for good answers. First, I liked the distand thunder thing This gives me some ideas to work with when I want the music to sound "distant" or coming from inside a building etc. The Zoom studio that I talked about was a ZOOM MRS 1608. Also the ansver from John Conley gives many ideas to work with. Thank you for help and inspiration :-) Then again about music for films. Do any of you use BIB for creating such music? The BIB has a "style" called "soundtracks". Do anyone of you use them? If so, what is your experience with these tracks,? Best reards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105872 02/18/11 05:01 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Hi Tono, Try doing some websearches for how to use a SIDECHAIN COMPRESSOR as a "DUCKER". The sidechain compressor is applied to the music track, but has an extra input for the voiceover track. When properly set, this will "DUCK" the music content underneath the voice but only when the voice is speaking. It will also allow the music to come back up between the spoken parts. Settings are critical beause we don't want the thing "pumping" or breathing in and out too rapidly. While I like to use a hardware compressor and multiple input/output soundcard for this work, there are some plugins around that will do the sidechain compressor job of Ducking. The Ducker is how the pros do it. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105873 02/18/11 05:08 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	Note the soundtrack styles reflect a mood or set a scene. This varies depending on your target audience. I would be lost trying to teach any group other than my own at this point in life. I know my son was teaching one of his first university courses and discovered HE was out of touch, trying to explain something in the terms of MASH and Klinger as it related to our concept of 'dressing' male or female when to his horror the first year university students knew nothing about MASH. Relevance. My kids think me irrelevant and that is probably true. If you are my age you'll remember that the one thing that can cross lines is classical music. When bugs bunny needed to convey energy, William Tell Overture. And guess what, classical music (for the most part) has not followed the model where you boost everything into a narrow range. One of the most intriguing side trips you can take on this issue is to put on Symphony No 3 by Górecki. Use good headphones. Don't turn it up at the start and leave the room, you might have your system blow up. You cannot listen to that in a car unless you are in a Bentley, perhaps. I have provided some training to the Canadian independent film industry. (Mostly documentaries) You'd be surprised to learn that they use Band in a Box a lot. You can set how long you want your snippet, pick a style, and Band in a Box makes the music. This works very well, the speaking is done and you want 2 mins 10 sec for credits. You can do that. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Mac #105874 02/18/11 12:14 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Thank you Mac. ( Good to hear that you are still there :-)) I will take a look at the "Ducker". Best regards from Tono.

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. John Conley #105875 02/18/11 12:30 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Thanks for your reply John. I Think that classic music is the best for background music in most of the "situations. And yes I was a little surprised that the pros used BIAB a lot. I have used BIB as backing tracks for songs, but the there was a voice or acoustic solo instrument as a lead, and the BIAB was the backing tracks. I have found that it is much more difficult to make a realistic "instrumental" and I dont understand how it is possible to make a believable classic piece with BIAB alone. If somebody have some examples or sugestions how this can be done please tell me. I played the Symphony No3 By Gorecki. An it was a sad thing, but wery useful if we want to make a documentary from a nazi consentration camp. Do anyone have a sugestions what cind of Classic music express beauty? Best regards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105876 02/18/11 12:39 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	For anyone wanting to fire up discourse on music: To help you out describe your mood based on turning everything off but think of a style. Grab the style, no chords no notes. Go to the Soundtrack Icon. Put in to make chords, it's gonna change the style no sweat. Put in the check box for time and put in 4 minutes and 33 seconds. Now mute all tracks and come in, sit down and hit play. At the end of 4' 33 seconds you have just delivered a famous piece of avant guard classical music. If you need to figure this wonder out google John Cage 4' 33''. Who said you were no good at classical right! What environmental music did you hear? John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. John Conley #105877 02/18/11 01:00 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto n. 2 in C minor especially the part from 1:30 to 2:50 or so. I love the signature riff at 7:30 ~ depending on tempo of who you listen to.... Next I think of Beethoven, Pathetique. op 13, the 'Midnight blue...' A nice waltz, Die Fledermaus...note the actual waltz is slower than in the intro, wife and I saw that at the Met. Lovely. Again the end user is the target. Sergi R. has some great stuff, but it would be called Northern Vast sweeping expanse, and you have Sibelius in somewhat the same boat, though you could argue the Tzar's influence on Finland was responsible for the 'russianization' of a country. And Sibelius spent many years going from that perspective with Swedish / Russian influence being contrasted with the traditional Finnish, where did that culture and language come from...thing. The advantage of using classical music or chords from some other song with the soundtrack function is you end up with something that is not under copyright. There are some classical music pieces included with band in a box. Have a look. Change out the style for a soundtrack one, lots of those are midi so it's dependent on how your synth sounds. Violins, synth pads etc. sound on as good as the hardware or software in the syth. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. John Conley #105878 02/18/11 04:52 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	In thinking about this the #1 most romantic need to hear, give her champagne, chocolate, and put on the Adagio for Strings by Barber. It's not long, and it's maybe too sweet, but a gem. Some people just can't get over the man, and give credit for the music. But then what do you do with sir Elton? I just can't be that narrow minded. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. John Conley #105879 02/18/11 06:14 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474 T Tono OP Journeyman
OP Tono Journeyman T Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 474	Thank you John. Now Ive got a lot to look at Best regards Tono

Re: Need adwice about mastering background music for film. Tono #105880 02/18/11 06:33 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	Listen to the Adagio. Great stuff. My tastes bounce here and there, I have full scores for a lot of stuff, from Bach cantatas, to some modern stuff I'm not so fond of. I love to listen and watch a score. I guess that is still an hour a day at least. My family settled in to watch the Grammy's and they were on me because I don't know anything about the last 10 years. Well a bit but I can't say anything about pop,rock, rap, country, hip hop. Not my thing. Oh, well. Just keep going. Plugging. Plodding. It is a lot of work, but there are rewards. John Conley Musica est vita

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