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Are you saying with RB you can route a RT guitar part to use for setting harmonies? But this can not be done from BIAB?
It can't be done in BIAB. It can be done in RB BUT you need to use either 2 soundcards or a multi out soundcard.You play guitar though so you don't NEED to run a guitar part from the program. Guitar plugs into the GTX and out to the amp. Mic plugs into the GTX and out to the PA.
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What do you mean when you say that BIAB would need a midi unit to get the chords. Is the porblem with the routing in BIAB, which is better done in RB?
BIAB is setup to send the chord changes via MIDI.There's a menu under prefs called chord output or something to that effect.
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As you know I use BIAB for live shows but this could be the decider to switch to RB for live gigs.
It'd take a little time but all you need to do is open your *.mgu songs in RB then save. You could probably do 200 songs in 2 hours.Add a guitar part & route to different card/output and you're done. Even if I was a guitar player I think I'd still do it this way.In this way you get steady chords to the GTX and don't have to taylor your playing. I've heard that your playing is important to getting good harmonies. I read this to mean more basic steady rhythm.
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John prefers the GTX due to it sharing the newer units harmonie engine, but my view on this is that the older voiceworks sound pretty darned good, and it is more tailored for both studio and live work, maybe leaning a tad towards studio. but when i tried the foot pedal unit, i had to remember to step on the unit and turn it on and off every time i wanted it.
This caused a lot of confusion for me, there were songs that it had to go on/off several times in a simple chorus. Like for instance where you want the harmonies to sing along then stop and allow you to sing one short part for effect, then some back in. In short a lot of foot clicking all the while i am trying to play the guitar, make eye contact with the audience, and remember the lyrics. Sometimes if I did not have just the right position on my seat i had issues getting it to turn either off/ or on, and then you sing the next verse and bam the harmonies are still on. Sometimes i stepped on the wrong button and wham the wrong sound.
I use the voice works because i can program it to turn itself on and off by midi CC commands. Plus it has 4 voices that i can tailor to need, plus thickening, compression, reverb, and pitch correction.
I can control the voices far better, i can have one come on in unison for a section and have two more kick in at the chorus. The voiceworks also has harmony hold so the harmonies can hold a note and i can then sing around them. The ability to genderize them is nice. Sometimes in the studio i set it up so that it drops my lead voice and only outputs the harmonies, this makes for a great sound, especially if you record the harmonies one at a time on separate tracks and pan, and move them around.
My wife wanted to know what girls i had sing with me the other day on one recording. Kinda funny .. er well that is after i convinced her it realy was me.
Lastly what i am doing now is to add harmonies right into my songs in RB, and mix them better, and not even use the unit live. Slowly i am working over a few songs at a time so that i can leave the unit in the studio, and just have recorded harmonies. This allows me to pan them left and right and add personal amounts of effects, and as i said earlier you can genderize them and it sounds more like other people. One of the big problems with Harmony units is that after a while it starts to sound like a whole bunch of you.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Interesting thread.
I like the voiceworks for all the reasons given by Rob... I hate having to make changes with foot pedals.. I like things to be programmed in advance to whatever degree of complexity I need. The voiceworks is a truly programmable unit capable of far more functionality than the newer audio driven units... and the relative price of each testifies to that.
One of John's objections in past discussions is that he didn't want to reprogram hundreds of songs. For his needs, I think he made the perfect choice. The GTX works right out of the box on the fly and gives him hands-on control, which is what he prefers.
The sound quality of all these TCHelicon units is very good no matter which one you get. When deciding what to buy it boils down to a question of whether convenience or control is most important to you. Also, how much time you want to invest in making the songs work with the unit... the voiceworks is more time-consuming, but also more powerful.
Whether you drive a vocal processor with MIDI chords or audio chords, you'll need a way to send a unique chords-only signal. RB allows multiple MIDI ports, so it's easier to send clean MIDI chords to the VoiceWorks with that program.
If your setup provides a way to split audio signals to multiple outputs (mixer, splitter, sound card with muliple outs etc) then you should be able to send a clean chords-only real track to the GTX device.
Or, you could use it as it was designed, play directly into it and let your playing trigger the chords.
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Another thing to consider before buying any vocal processor is the wide variety of harmony types that are possible. Audio activated devices generally produce chordal harmonies. But there are many other kinds of harmonies. (several varieties of scalic, note driven etc)
If you want specific notes (such as the harmony used in Scarboro Fair) a chordal harmony won't do that. It will provide a theoretically correct harmony, but it won't be the one in the original song. If you are into note-for-note reproduction of cover songs, you definitely want to look at a programmable device.
A programmable device is capable of reproducing ANY harmony that is possible (If you are willing to endure the learning curve and time to reprogram your set list of songs)
The chord-based harmonizers do one thing very well: they provide excellent sounding backing vocals that fit a given song in a generic way (much like BIAB reproduces songs very well, but without the signature licks)
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Quote:
If your setup provides a way to split audio signals to multiple outputs (mixer, splitter, sound card with muliple outs etc) then you should be able to send a clean chords-only real track to the GTX device.
This is what I do cause I play bass.
For background in 2001 I bought a Digitech Vocalist II. It was almost identical in features as the 2003 Voiceworks. All the programability etc. All I ever used were a couple of the close voiced presets. I did use CC messages to activate the unit. The sound was reasonable and I liked it.This time the main focus had to be on the quality of the harmonies. After listening to demos of 3 units:
1. Voice live II
2. Harmony M
3. Harmony GXT
4. Voiceworks
Done by:
1. TC Helicon
2. members of this forum THANKS
3. other folks
4. comments at the TC forums
I decided that even though they all sounded very good the VoiceLive II & the GXT had the best sounding harmonies for my needs. I could not afford the VL II at this time.The GXT is the same vocal processor as the VoiceLive II.
One thing that may slip is that the new GXT has a USB connector and a program for saving and restoring presets & setups.It's also used for firmware updates. I've already done one of those. Slick. The presets are save as sysex files. With the unit plugged in it shows up as a MIDI driver. See where this is headed.There's discussion that appears to be from a knowledgeable source that there will be an update that will allow the GXT to be MIDI controlled. Sort of a merge of the older M & G .
The other thing
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I am generally very conservative on my gear purchases - I am not one that suffers from GAS, however, following this discussion you guys have really got me going on this one. The harmonies I hear by web searching are generally really good which to my ear says the sound engine has improved from last time I looked at this stuff. Now it is just a matter of usability - I am not looking for something which has to be overly programmed. I always try to stay away from units which have to be programmed by ..push first button twice, then hold down second button once, for 5 secs, then switch unit off and then on, then select option 1 to 10... I need presets and I need it to be simple. Started poking around on Ebay and craigs list looking for deals. Also heading out to the local guitar \ music shops today to see whats is available - the search is on. Thanks for the great info on what is being used and how. 
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Harmony GXT can be had if you call, for $239.It has 10 presets.With the included software & USB cable these can be saved and a different set made. My first test of the unit was just preset #2 which had the following settings:
1. 2 above
2. voice correction off
3. Hall Reverb
4. Tone on---kind of smooths out your voice
5. double on
I left it like this all night. Just hit the button when I wanted harmonies.With open voiced chords coming from RT the harmonies stayed real close voiced which I like.
I agree Pat. If you want to recreate the exact harmonies to a particular song you must have a unit that will play based on the midi notes you program in. Digitech calls this Vocoder Mode.Don't remember what TC calls it.
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Dan,
I can't imagine that you wouldn't be very happy with any of the TC Helicon vocal processors. IMHO, they are the perfect addition to PGMusics products. Those two products plus your talent can reproduce the sound of an entire group.
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BY the way, the voiceworks doesn't HAVE to be programmed... that's just one way to use it. You can use other types of harmonies that are just as hands-off as the harmonies from John's device.
You can send chords from BIAB or set the key from the faceplate then just use the foot switch to turn harmonies off and on.
You'll like it. It is by far the coolest piece of gear I've ever owned.
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Hey guys thanks so much for the personnal endorsements and recommendations.
The hunt is truly on. I spent the day at a local Sam Ash and a Guitar Center. Both would have to order it for me. SA for $249 and GC for $279, although I'm sure they would price match. GC did have a demo True Voice Harmony G which is the predessor to the Harmony G XT. But I have my mind set on the G XT. I am currently chasing some eBay bids and will let you know in the days ahead how it all works out.
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Perhaps you can ask John (Silvertones) for the demo-files he used to make his choise. Here's a short demo I made with the VoiceLive2 (same harmony-engine as the GXT). This demo is made using a Shure SM58 and an Ovation CC48, both plugged into the VoiceLive 2 and the output was recorded live as-is into Cubase. No further editing was done: the sound you hear comes straight from the VoiceLive 2. The first bit is The Boxer by Simon and Garfunkel. I used a factory preset (3th above) and tweaked it a little bit to better suit my taste. The first part is only lead vox with reverb. The second verse ads the harmony (foot-switch). The second bit is Teach your children by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. I used a preset with a small tweak. You'll hear 2 3ths and 2 5ths, panned in stereo. The guitar-sound was enhanced with the VL2 built-in guitar effects.
Last edited by Mike sings; 05/18/11 04:57 AM.
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I bought a TC Helicon Voicworks from pgmusic. Got it next day shipping.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
I am not looking for something which has to be overly programmed. I always try to stay away from units which have to be programmed by ..push first button twice, then hold down second button once, for 5 secs, then switch unit off and then on, then select option 1 to 10... I need presets and I need it to be simple.
when I say "programmable" I don't mean layers of menus. I mean the same kind of continuous controller programming that lets you control any MIDI device as part of the sequence.
In the same way that BIAB and RB let you use upper bank patch files to add the names of your synths non GM patches to the dropdown patch selection dialog box, you can also add the CC prameters for MIDIable devices to the same file.
That way, in Piano roll mode when you click on the dropdown box to add a continuous controller, you get a custom list of controls for your MIDI device. In the case of the VOICEWORKS, the custom dialog would say things like...
harmony off/on
pitch correction off/on
harmony type
harmony key
correction type
correction key
etc
every single parameter can be changed on the fly by inserting continuous controller commands into the track. Its very easy to make harmonies switch on and off, add more vocalists, change the reverb, key etc
And the nice thing is that because it works via continuous controllers, most of us MIDI enthusiasts already know how to do that, so there isn't a huge learning curve
Anybody who is gearing up for a solo act should consider buying only MIDIable devices that can be controlled with CC. Once you get the sequence set, all volume changes, patch changes, key changes etc happen automatically, as if you had an invisible sound guy controlling the show.
All business is about offering the same product or service at a price that is lower than your competitor. The way to do that is by cutting costs. With BIAB, a vocal processor and continuous controllers you have eliminated the cost of a full band, backing vocalists and the sound guy. (CC can do lights too).
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Quote:
Perhaps you can ask John (Silvertones) for the demo-files he used to make his choise.
Here's a short demo I made with the VoiceLive2 (same harmony-engine as the GXT).
Mike, your the man. Great sound here, thanks for sharing.
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John, I would trade my eye tooth for the Voiceworks II, but unfortunatley no one would give me $799US for my tooth. At this stage I simply can't afford it. 
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If you follow the Helicon products you'll see they had a pedal for guitar called G & a pedal for keys called M. They updated the G to GXT but did not update the M. I think it's a matter of time before the M is discontinued and the G & M are combined.
Hiya bobseekone,
It will show up as a device because MIDI is used to transmit updates over USB but Harmony GXT is intended for manual footswitching only, as such there is no MIDI patch change ability. There are a few people who use MIDI foot controller boards so we'll put this in the wishlist!
Best wishes,
Joey
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The sound of the GXT is the same as the Mike's VoiceLive 2
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I just got back from Ebay where a "new in box, never used, got it as a gift" TC Helicon Voiceworks sold for $209
that's a lot of bang for the buck!
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Quote:
I just got back from Ebay where a "new in box, never used, got it as a gift" TC Helicon Voiceworks sold for $209
that's a lot of bang for the buck!
I have a different outlook on that. To me, whether it be a harmonizer, keyboard, new car,it is not a FEATURE unless it's something you need or want.The Voiceworks used for $209 or the one I could get new for $239 at MF was not good bang for the buck cause all I want is 2 voices & effects for my voice & the harmonies.Nothing more. The Voicelive 2 & GXT are better at this then any that I have listened to. Admittedly I've only listened to factory demos & a couple from folks here.If you need or want all the other things then the Voiceworks would indeed be a great value.I don't do any recording at all as hard as that may be to believe. I focus on live.
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