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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,944
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,944 |
There are 2 issues as I see it:
1. Some people are saying that embellishments are OK, but not when they are musicially incorrect (such as a natural 13th on the V7 in a minor key, or a #4 on a major 1 chord).
This I agree with, and we will work on improving that. So that's like a bug in the program.
2. Others are saying that the chords should never be embellished, if it says C7, then the players should only play chord tones C,E,G, Bb. I don't agree there, since that's not how musicians play. For that, we can make "simple variations" that will play close to what is wanted, but it helps if you can identify styles (realTracks) that are in need of simple variations.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303 |
Quote:
Quote:
All that is needed is to program the styles...
And, learn the Stylemaker. You need someone to hold your hand or what? It's all there in the manual and help files. Poor baby, no video tutorial? R...T...F...M.
Bob
Your ID should be 'Idiotmammal'. Take your meds, will you? 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303 |
Quote:
There are 2 issues as I see it:
1. Some people are saying that embellishments are OK, but not when they are musicially incorrect (such as a natural 13th on the V7 in a minor key, or a #4 on a major 1 chord).
This I agree with, and we will work on improving that. So that's like a bug in the program.
2. Others are saying that the chords should never be embellished, if it says C7, then the players should only play chord tones C,E,G, Bb. I don't agree there, since that's not how musicians play. For that, we can make "simple variations" that will play close to what is wanted, but it helps if you can identify styles (realTracks) that are in need of simple variations.
Peter, agreed about (1) above.
About (2), there's a contradiction. Why would I want to type in C7 and have BB playing back anything else other than C,E,G,Bb ? I want C7, I don't want anything else in there. The only unobtrusive embellishments that would work, would be passing notes in between the chord tones, but really, it doesn't even make musical sense. If the BB plays all these options, then what's left for the melody to play? If more than one instrument plays passing notes, the effect of these notes will diminish, unless the user is Bach. If one instrument plays passing notes, another instrument should have longer notes....these are basic arranging guidelines. So the options played back will limit, not enhance, my choices.
But the main problem with BB is that it either plays some unwanted altered notes (sharp 4ths on maj7 chords with all options ticked off etc), or it will play some notes that are not in the key. These are the two main problems as I have experienced them.
But these aren't the only problem. A few days ago I was using a rock realtrack and the guitar arpeggios had an add9 that I could not get rid of. I wanted a minor chord, not an minor chord with a 9th on top, because that note only changed the whole mood of what I wanted to write.
BB it's a great program and I have used it for at least 5 years, but I really hope that we as users will have a lot more control on how BB plays back the chords.
PS. I think that a video tutorial of the Stylemaker and how to edit the style to root out these weird notes, should be available.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303 |
Quote:
Quote:
All these embellishments only happen with "plain 7 th chords"...
Ah, and therein is the reason. Thanks, Peter.
They happens with other chords too.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,226
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,226 |
A while ago someone, I forgot whom, suggested what I think is a solution to this problem. The suggestion said something like create radio buttons that said jazz chords (like it is now) or country/rock chords (simple chords with no embellishments what so ever). If this could be programmed into BiaB/RB it would satisfy both camps.
My boss calls me "the computer".
Nothing to do with intelligence. I go to sleep if left unattended for 15 minutes.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,319
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,319 |
Avatars,
From reading your posts, I can see that you are musician with a great deal of expertise. Many users of BIAB do not have your expertise, though, and it is unlikely that they will ever gain such sophisticated musical knowledge. For these people, having BIAB embellish chords is a boon and not a disadvantage.
Mario's suggestion is a good one. I thought that in an earlier version of BIAB such settings used to exist and were located under Song Settings. I cannot seem to find these options now. Maybe I was dreaming!
I know that someone has mentioned about the "Allow embellishments" option. Another one that might be good to disengage is under Opt | Preferences | Realtracks. It's called "Jazz Up Triads to 7ths".
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 84 |
Peter, would it be possible to have an embellishment slider? That way we could choose to have BIAB arrange with anything from no embellishment to "all hell breaks loose".
John
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
The genre radio button idea was mine.
People who make personal attacks should not be allowed to post.
And there is, for the 2nd or 3rd time I posted it, a video. It's on my drive(s) I get 2 times a year, and I see it on the support page, though I don't see an option to download only that.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,608
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,608 |
Avatar, you also have to remember that thousands of us are working jazz musicians and we like the embellishment of the chords. I almost never enter a plain triad or seventh chord. If I enter C13#11 that's what BIAB plays. It's hard to please everyone. BIAB has so far reached a pretty good middle ground. It's only going to get better. We just have to be patient. BIAB over the years has implemented many wishes of it's users. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
Avatars, you're doing it again. Not answering the question. Peter said this: Quote:
2. Others are saying that the chords should never be embellished, if it says C7, then the players should only play chord tones C,E,G, Bb. I don't agree there, since that's not how musicians play. For that, we can make "simple variations" that will play close to what is wanted, but it helps if you can identify styles (realTracks) that are in need of simple variations.
So, identify the styles and RT's that are in need of simple variations. That's basically what Ray asked earlier. Instead you're going on about how much you know about music and how much you think the program should change.
The key as I see it and Peter just said is real musicians don't play that way in a live situation. You're thinking of a studio situation where everybody has sheet music in front of them like John Williams recording the soundtrack to Star Wars. Yes, in that situation the players will play exactly what's written but not in a small band live club situation which is what Biab is geared towards. Think of the standard styles that a lot of us play. Old 50's, jazz, country, classic rock and roll, R & B. There's plenty of altered chords in every one of those styles even so called "simple" ones like old 50's and country. Plenty of #/b 5ths and 9ths. Not as much as jazz but they're still there, I know because I play that stuff all the time.
For me personally, I get annoyed by posters who go on and on for three or four long paragraphs on one simple point then don't answer the basic question that is at the bottom of the whole thing. That question has been asked twice now. Give us an example of what you're trying to do and how you're being stymied by the program or better yet, post a link to your song file so we can see exactly what you did. There's workarounds and techniques we've all used to do certain things. Maybe a simple tweak would work for you but we don't know what that is until you get specific with what you're trying to do. Giving us a long dissertation on music theory to point out this or that is not "musical" is not helping. You're not the only trained player here, we're well aware of what you're talking about. This is not the first time a well schooled musician has had the same problem. Biab is simply not designed for a good arranger to put together a polished, finished studio product. For that you need a standard DAW and some players who can read and play what you've written.
Apparently there is a video about using the Stylemaker so watch it and learn how to use it. John also mentioned changing the weighting in the Stylemaker. That is similar to what a slider would do that someone else just suggested. The weighting controls how often a certain embellishment would occur within that style.
As I said earlier, Biab gives you all the tools necessary to do pretty much what you want but it's up to you to learn how to use them.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,418
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,418 |
Let's call a halt on this one, let Peter work it out, and everybody go make music.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303 |
Quote:
Avatars, you're doing it again. Not answering the question.
Bob
hey 'Bob', I do it because I can. I also answered your question, read my reply to you earlier. Read it up. It reads that your ID should be 'Idiotmammal' and that you should keep taking your meds.
What else you want me to do? Recommend a therapist? Don't know any, look it up on the Yellow Pages
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
To quote Peter again: Quote:
but it helps if you can identify styles (realTracks) that are in need of simple variations.
My meds have now worn off, I decided to hold off on the next dose until my head cleared and I could re-read every word in every one of your posts in this thread because for whatever stupid reason I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought I may have missed something. You have made no mention of specific styles or Real Tracks you feel are too busy as Peter asked. You must be ignoring him too 'because you can'.
Oh no, did I just take the wrong pill again? Those psychotropic pink and black ones are really confusing. Damn, that's the third time this week, er day, er this morning!?! ohh nooooo...Nurse!! NURSE!!! bzzzzt, BZZZZZTTT!!! WHERE ARE YOU?????
Bobby, baby, boobie, la, la, lalalaaaaa...
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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