|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,122
Expert
|
OP
Expert
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,122 |
This topic came up in another forum and various opinions arose regarding the why and wherefore, but thus far no definative answer.
Q: Why is Concert C and not A?
Here is how the original question was asked:
As an engineer, if I were going to make the most basic scale (i.e., the one with no sharps and flats) the easiest to understand, I would have started with A, as follows:
Order_ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Name_ A B C D E F G
W or B W W W W W W W
(W or B refering to the color of the piano key)
Instead, we have:
Order_ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Name_ C D E F G A B
W or B W W W W W W W
I realized lately that when transposing, the wrap around from G to A always slows me down and I was just wondering why it is in the middle of the scale, not the end.
Naming is sometimes arbitrary, but becomes a legacy that has meaning. Does anyone know why western music selected Concert C as the key described with no sharps and flats? Was it by accident, or is there a music theory reason for it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
It's not. C is arbitrary. Tuning is to A=440, but there are orchestras and instruments that do not tune to that. An Alto flute may be tuned to 442, but you can yank out the tuning slide and change it. I know an old time jazz duo who play electric guitar and stand up bass and they asked me after 10 songs or so to sit in on the piano for one tune (Satin Doll Dm). They then needed to retune because they were both tuned a 1/2 tone down. After that they said it was a pain to include the piano because they just tuned to the upright bass.
There are studies (Schuman etc.) that peg colours and the earths resonance to certain frequencies. 560hz I think was the number, and aboriginals in Australia played that note as their fundamental. The multiplication of that note by some 40 times will yield the colour sky blue in the light spectrum.
I forget alot of what I was taught in this subject, but I'll ponder it some more. I do have notes somewhere but I'm revamping my studio/music/notes/books trying to get things more functional.
This subject leads to study of brainwaves, earth 'tones', and even planetary stuff and some of it seems quite off the wall. None the less, music has no actual key, ie C as a natural centre, it just happens to be the all white key scale, and thus easier to play on a piano.
Fiddle and fold players often use A for most of their stuff, it suits a beginner violin / fiddle player. Beginning guitar players want nothing in the key of F.
The C or soprano flute has C as the low note, but it's hard to have consistency as a new flute player and the don't want that low C in the music, but are not adverse to a D.
And horn players (B flat ones) can easily do a G at the low end, and can usually make 2 octaves then, but from G to high C you are looking at a more advanced player. Bear in mind that when I say G it really is an A because of the Bflat nature of the horn and it's fundamental, which when you whack the mouthpiece with your hand you hear a Bflat not a C. So when a piano and a bflat horn play the same note to your ear the horn is actually reading one note or 2 semi tones higher so an F on the piano is a read as a G on the horn.
I hope this gives some food for thought. I have actually registered to take this course at University this fall, and hope I get in. Somewhere the wife has a big book on the Physics and math of music, I have to review that and decide if I'm going to take that course, math was never my strong suit unless it's the accounting type.
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I don't know if this matters or not but it is interesting to add this thought.
Given that a major scale is root, whole step, whole step, half step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half step (whole step), where you start is not relevant. Now, that does not address the math/physics question about where the standard 440hz tone tuning came from and who named that "A". If it was Bartolomeo Cristofori when he built that first piano in 1700, we can't ask him.... LOL!!
John brings up a funny story when mentioning the key that horns play in. When I started playing sax, I learned the horn in concert key. So when the sheet music says F#, and I play the F# fingering, I hear an A. Thus I learned that when I play that combination of keys depressed I get an A, and I moved forward calling that A. Made for some problems reading sheet music in college. I had to take every chart home and rewrite them in C so I could read them. LOL!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
Trombone can be weird.
In British style music the notes are in treble clef and in Bflat.
In American trombone it's bass clef and read in C so they learn different positions for the notes.
In some cases it's bass clef and in Bflat.
Of course, as instruments go it's pretty much perfect in that you never need to tune it per se. You just play out of or into the note.
And trombone players are consistently weird, talking and joking all the time no matter which band they are in. And they seem to stick together at parties like they are a separate society. I have a bone, and can actually play some stuff, but because my other horns call me I leave it in the case most weeks, sigh. I want to get in on that horsing around and stuff. When everyone at practice gets serious I put on my clown nose.
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
The system wasn't "designed" per se, it *developed* over time.
Over the years there have been various attempts made to "simplify" or otherwise try to come up with a system that someone thought made "more sense" but every single attempt has met with dismal failure.
My use of the term, "developed" up there might better be defined as, "evolved"...
Not sure what the fellow meant with the W and B stuff up there, neither makes any sense to me. Apparently he is going off of the idea that the white keys must represent a specific desirable place to center things. That is not necessarily the case here at all IMO. Ever meet a Black Key Pianist? Hmmmm...
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,333 |
The middle key on the 88 key piano is an E, giving you the piano in the key of ...E!
The lowest note is A, the middle E and the top C giving you an Am triad. But there is still the E.
The violin is tuned to A and the concertmaster is the #1 violin player who is in charge of tuning the whole she-bang. In times gone buy the concert master would tune his violin to A using a tuning fork, and the rest of the tuning of everything is done from there.
John Conley
Musica est vita
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Well, for my daily injection of alleged humor, Irving Berlin wrote everything originally in the key of C because he didn't play using the black keys very well.
And HE wrote White Christmas, so.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
Quote:
Well, for my daily injection of alleged humor, Irving Berlin wrote everything originally in the key of C because he didn't play using the black keys very well.
And HE wrote White Christmas, so.....
White Christmas - hmm, don't have the sheet music in front of me, but it sure seems like there's a lot more 1/2 steps in there than just B to C and E to F. He would have had to hit a black key now and then.
Until I started playing keys for a band that used horns, I did the same. Hands migrate to C. However, playing half-way decent B3 in flat keys is actually EASIER somewhat to me because of the way the voicings for I IV and V work with some of those flats thrown in. I got to the point where I almost enjoyed it!
Then I learned that a capo on the 3rd fret can also be my friend for playing in those same keys on guitar. Yeah, yeah, a real player doesn't need no stinking capo - heard it before. In my brain, the chord fingerings for the flat keys are even hard-wired now as to their open positions with the capo on the 3rd fret. I don't even really think about it. F=D, Bb=G, C=A, Eb=C, etc.
Once I learned that trick, I ended up wearing out the spring on my Kyser capo, I used that thing so much! Had to buy a new one.
-Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Actually I write in C,D or E because that is the limitation of the range I can sing in. And I like flatted keys because the black keys stand up off the keyboard and are easier to find when fishing blindfold for a key. As it is I have a small piece of duct tape on the A's so when I reach without looking I can find "home" by touch. Playing live with boards at 90 degrees to each other there is a lot of blind reaching.
But we are way off topic....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,296
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,296 |
Eddie and Scott:
What I recall reading is that Berlin played only in the key of C, but this doesn't imply that he didn't use any black keys. He would have used accidentals as required to fit the melody/harmony.
The sheet music I have for White Christmas is in C, but the word "of" in "I'm dreaming of . ." has to be D#.
I think I also recall reading that he had a piano on which the keys would shift so that even if he was playing the C major keys, he could shift it so that the music coming out was in E flat for example.
Never mind, Errol Garner couldn't read music in any key.
Glenn
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Well, as the original post said, "my daily injection of alleged humor". Berlin was one of the greats and I am sure he could play in any key he chose to play in. It was supposed to be a wise crack given that the topic of the thread is why the keys are arranged and named as they are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926 |
Quote:
I think I also recall reading that he had a piano on which the keys would shift so that even if he was playing the C major keys, he could shift it so that the music coming out was in E flat for example.
Glenn
Steve Allen (humorist, originator of the "Tonight Show," and all-around nice guy) did, in fact, have such a piano. The internal action somehow shifted so he could finger several tonalities in the key of C.
Mac - Graham Nash did in fact write a song called "Black Keys." Look it up on youtube or elsewhere; it's fun and illuminating. I've played it before--anyone can do it!
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Of course with synthesizers we can detune and transpose any way we want to, and I HAVE seen keyboard players who were so weak they could only play white keys. There was one local band that had a female keyboard player who was obviously there for her voice because she played the whole set I watched with 3 fingers on one hand. No left hand ever and thumb and 2 fingers only from the right hand. Outstanding singer and a good looker though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
The violin is tuned to A and the concertmaster is the #1 violin player who is in charge of tuning the whole she-bang. In times gone buy the concert master would tune his violin to A using a tuning fork, and the rest of the tuning of everything is done from there.
Um, exactly how old ARE you, Johnboy?
My entire existence, the tuning standard (the fork) has belonged to the OBOE section of the orchestra. The Oboist tunes the oboe to the fork, then, on command from the Concertmaster, who is the first chair first violinist, plays the A for the rest of the orchestra and they all tune from that note.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,869
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,869 |
There are a lot of anomolies like this in music and it makes things very tiresome sometimes. Being someone that plays instruments pitched in Bb Eb and C I hate all this transposition stuff its just so tiresome. I could rant on about the impracticality of notation and trheory for ages, its so needlessly obscure at times. We should remember that its a historical hotchpotch of this and that compromises for different musical settings and requirements. When music theory was originating there was no major scale just a bunch of unrelated modes (not the modern modes) and there was also no equal temprement scale this had to wait until Bach's day. I guess different orchestras, choirs, bands just tuned ot eachother
Of topic:
The whole idea of scratching little dots you can hardly see onto tiny tramlines and then littering the page with symbols with very silly latin names like 'Appogitura', or 'hemi-demi-semiquaver' is a major obstacle for many learners. I do hope some international convetion give this a rethink - we need an Esperanto for music.
BHy showing the absolute piutch names notation encourages people to read without thinking of the harmony (just the individual notes) and much essential information simply not apparent or horrendously dificult to notate.
End of rant.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
What's funny to me is that after YEARS of school, theory lessons, etc.....
When I chart now I just chart measures and chord names.
/ C / / Am / / F /Dm F / G / /
I figure by now I should KNOW what makes up a C chord.... More time is spent with slate sheets so I know what track holds what part of the multitrack, what MIDI channel, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217 |
.
I have been looking for the answer to this for a long time. The best answer I have found is that C got to be the default through a quirk of organ building.
When you are cutting pipes to length for various pitches, multiples of 8 feet will give you "C" notes. 8 feet is middle C, 4 feet an octave higher, 16 feet an octave lower. All the other notes involve odd fractions and multiples. The C notes were the easiest to cut and measure, so they became the starting point and reference point for organ building. The notes of the scale starting and ending on C became the ones that did not use black keys.
The story of how "A" got to be the tuning note, and how 440 Hz got to be chosen for that pitch, is a whole 'nother story.
Last edited by flatfoot; 06/20/11 08:11 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,026
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,026 |
The American music industry used a standard of A 440 Hz in 1926,in instrument manufacturing. In 1936 the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 . Why ? Because a long time ago musicians used different values for A thus a need for standards . As for ABCDEFG as opposed CDEFGAB why not DEFGABC ,EFGABCD ,FGABCDE ,OH No Now Iv'e gone modal on you ! I hate when I go modal,and don't get me started on the B/W thing .(lol) My first experience with that was my Dad playing guitar and he told me to only bang on the black keys and it would sound OK . Musta been F# he was in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
In reply to Tommyc - it's not just 'a long time ago', some orchestras still use values other than 440Hz for A. Check out this conversation in a forum on violinist.com: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11273I can say that when tuning pianos, I'm rarely tuning to exactly 440 on a particular axe - because most people that call me haven't had theirs tuned in literally years, and their whole instrument is so out of pitch that if I try raising it all the way to 440, I'll get a call in a week to come back and re-do the job! So, I will quiz down the piano owner on when the last time the piano was tuned (most tuners I know will leave some written record inside the piano of what they set the instrument to and when) and they will sheepishly admit years of time. Then I explain that I can do a better job getting the piano tuned to itself first, then over time gradually raise the pitch of the instrument, through several tunings, up to 440. When I do this, then I get the call in 6 months to come again, and I'll gradually get that piano up to 440, but it takes time for the piano to settle into it's new tuning each time. -Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,736
Posts795,467
Members39,942
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean