PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic People reaction when told of band in a box.

I’ve found the best way to present BIAB to other musicians is to tell them it’s a great practice tool for backing you up while you play. “Beats the hell out of a metronome or drum machine”.

I also point out that it allows them to play for their friends and having it sound like a band.
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Now let me use an analogy to point out why so many musicians look down on it.

Let’s say “Acme Artistry”, (or PGM - Pretty Good Mural's ), came out with “Painter-In-A-Box”. You select “New”, click on landscape “style”. Click to include birds, trees, flowers, a stream, and then top it off with a sunset. You then click “create”. Shazam!!!! You have a painting!

You then print it out and take it to your “artist” friends and say “Look at my new painting! How do you like it ?”

Sound familiar???

The degree to which other musicians accept your BIAB song will depend largely on how much you’re contributing to the final product. If you’re playing most of the instruments and doing the singing, the reception will likely be better, (unless of course your playing and singing sucks!)

If you just type in a chord progression and select a style while BIAB does all the work, then your new "song" will have about as much meaning as the "art" from Painter-In-A-Box!

What a rubish. I am a professional jazz guitarist and guitar teacher. I use this programm myself on a daily basis for practising. I also recomment it to all my students.

The only reason I could imagine a pro who doesn`t know the programm would say a thing like that, is if the songs/playbacks you presented sounded cheesy and midi-like. I hear those kinda playbacks/songs with country music a lot (dunno why) and it sounds just terrible. But if you use the programm properly it sounds great with any style.

Sandra

I think if you presented BIAB as a 'tool' then more musicians, at least at the pro level, would be accepting of it.

Give them a few bars of something you cooked up, and show them the basics. Then, pop Matt Finley's Brazilian Wish in the CD player, and say 'Yeah, it's all live musicians, but the genesis of the songs started in BIAB.'

Goes and pops Brazilian Wish in my playlist for Napster.

Gary

Sandra,

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What a rubish. I am a professional jazz guitarist and guitar teacher. I use this programm myself on a daily basis for practising. I also recomment it to all my students.

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LOL. I assume you meant “rubbish”. You obviously misunderstood the analogy.

I LOVE BIAB and wouldn’t want to be without it. It took practicing from being boring and tedious to being a quasi “jam session”! I also recommend the program to all musicians, from budding “newbies” to seasoned professionals.

On most all of the songs I recorded prior to having BIAB, I wrote the songs, played all of the instruments, and sang lead and harmony. If I ever start recording again, the first thing I’ll “lay down” will be BIAB. I’ll then play and record as many of the other instruments as possible, and probably just end up using drums and piano from BIAB, and any other instrument I can’t play or don’t have access to.

If I ever start “gigging” again, it’ll probably be with BIAB backing tracks. But I’ll be playing rhythm and lead guitar and doing the vocals.

So what was the point to the “Painter-In-A-Box” analogy? If you just type in a progression into BIAB and select a style, and you don’t play an instrument to accompany it, don’t compose a melody, and/or don’t write and/ or sing lyrics, then you didn’t write … nor do you have a song. You have a chord progression with computer generated tracks.

That deserves the same amount of respect from your fellow musicians as using “Painter-In-A-Box” will get you from your fellow artists.

By the way, I love your playing! Nice guitar too.

If you want to hear any of my playing, there’s a radio program posted on Soundcloud. The songs range from bluegrass to jazz to new acoustic. If I recall correctly, Minor Swing is included. I pulled my originals from the site.

http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

@ Bob: Oh no, no. I wasn't referring to you or your statement.
With "rubbish" I meant the persons who think that BIAB isn't cool enough fot them. Actually I was answering Jan Larkins post and his musicians friend opinion on BB.

Sandra

Cool! I thought I'd ticked you off!

By the way, I just listened to that old radio program and Minor Swing isn't on there.

Two songs you may like:

Opus 57 @ 34:46
Dawg's Rag @ 44:58

Take care and keep pickin'.

There was a period when a lot of folks at KVR were of the "Well, if you're not using this particular product (usually Pro Tools), you're not a real musician". Fortunately, given some of the amazingly good free and inexpensive software toys out there, e.g., Reaper, the free synths by HG Fortune and U-He, the Alchemy player, etc., that has shifted, at least to the extent that the gear snobs aren't as obvious anymore.

I just like sitting people down in front of my laptop, typing in a twelve-bar blues, assigning a few RTs, and clicking "Play", and then watching their eyes bug out. Anybody who wants to tell me it's not valid music can go jump.

Pat,

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Consider the fact that the great composers didn't play all the instruments in their masterpieces... they just laid out the structure and then turned it over to skilled performers. To some extent, that's what happens here.

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That’s not a very good comparison Pat. The “great composers” laid out EVERY note to be played by EVERY instrument. That’s a helluva lot different than typing in a chord progression with NO input what ANY instrument plays.

It’s a disservice to any songwriter or composer to even make the comparison!

Jeez! Let's not misrepresent the program. If we do, we deserve whatever scorn other musicians heap on us and BIAB.

Even if all you do is type in the chords, i think it could be a tad arrogant to say it is not of value, or would, could or should be looked down on. (not calling Bob arrogant by the way, but talking about the concept) One still has to know what chords to type in. Plus you have to mix it and master it, effects, panning and such or it will sound rather dull.

We could get into what is an instrument, midi , guitar, vocal, keys, wood, brass, etc. There were heated debates over at Acid Planet over whether loop built music was music or not. Someone had to chose loops that worked well, and then put then together properly, and mix and master the end result.

If you type in the chords, and select a style, and do nothing but sing a track over it, are you not a musician? Is not a voice one of the worlds finest instruments, and one of the hardest to master?

If one who programs a synth not a musician as well!

Robh,

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If you type in the chords, and select a style, and do nothing but sing a track over it, are you not a musician?

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LOL. Let’s please not get into “Are Singers Musicians” again. We drug that one out for a long time just a few months back.

So, I’ll take the “fifth”.

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If one who programs a synth not a musician as well!

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Not necessarily. They may just be a programmer with a little knowledge of music theory or math. Either will work.

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if all you do is type in the chords, i think it could be a tad arrogant to say it is not of value

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Okay, … I’ll be a tad arrogant. If I sit here and type in 32 bars of C, F and G into BIAB, that doesn’t mean I’ve composed anything! If I add lyrics and/or a melody, it means I’ve written a song, even if I can’t play an instrument or sing.

BIAB is a great songwriters tool and you don't have to be a musician to be a songwriter, but it helps a lot.

Some one asked me a while back when we were "discussing" the use of BIAB (I was discussing but the rest were rubbishing) what would Beethoven have written if he had comupters and BIAB etc and I said it certainly would not have been what he is now famous for.
Imagine Lennon and Mcartney with BIAB, what would Yesterday sound like without George Martin's input re strings? Totally different, maybe as good but never, IMHO, beating having 100% human input.
I have written songs since the 1960's but I sounded like a blunt drill bit trying to cut dry driftwood in an echo chamber on just guitar and voice. My first "studios" with 4 and 8 tracks sounded better but this time covered in hisszzzzzzzzzzzz. Then came MIDI and then I discovered BIAB. YAY!! and I now have full instrumentation at my finger tips with VSTi's etc etc.
I would love to be able to write like a classical composer in the 18th century or actually have thought of, for eg, the signature sound of the Glenn Miller orchestra with the sax and clarinet.
Progress has meant that I can now just pick a style, press generate and have a song without any intervention from me inputing the chord sequence. This is what I did with BIAB initially with the inbuilt styles. Now with real tracks a professional sounding song materialises. This is without any input of the "button pressers" ideas for a song, chords etc.

BUT inputting one's own chord sequence turns BIAB into the best band ever, no drunks, no chatting up the wimmin, no broken strings and forgotten leads and best of all no arguing and fights. Been there done that too often, usually a combination of drink and wimmin With work my songs now sound,as near as possible to the version inside my head with a reasonably professional end result. And all at home in my lickle "studio".
The user showcase also shows how good BIAB can be in the right hands BUT I always wonder if those songs would have ever seen the light of day without BIAB and I THANK PG Music for making it all possible. Helping us all, maybe, realise a dream.
Without BIAB I would not have fans in Vietnam and Japan or have been called WIllie Nelson's ugly brother!!!

I was classically trained on piano BUT BIAB has taught me more about music than I have ever learnt from teachers. Apart from that Saturday in the 1970's when Jeff Beck showed me how to play Jeff's Boogie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A_s0Kyh2qQ in a music shop in Charing Cross road, London. He said FFS this is how you do it and showed me hammer-ons and pull offs, cheers Jeff!!!

I say BIAB is now a musical instrument and as with all instruments you need to learn how to play it.

Gibson,

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I say BIAB is now a musical instrument and as with all instruments you need to learn how to play it.

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Oh my goodness! ……………Seriously? I mean really, …… are you serious??????

I thought I’d found a place where musicians could use technology to enhance what they can actually PLAY. Notice I said enhance WHAT THEY CAN PLAY!

So if anyone who can double click on a BIAB icon and type in a chord progression is a musician, …… then what’s next? Let’s see. If you can recite the alphabet from A to G or count from 1 to 7, are you a musician?

In the process of defending BIAB against the “naysayers”, you are actually building their case against it!

Maybe some of you guys don’t put any stock into the hours, days, weeks, months and years you’ve put into learning to play your instrument, … … but I do! Saying that anyone who can use BIAB is a musician is OFFENSIVE to anyone who can actually play an instrument! No wonder some folks look down their nose at it. I would too if I hadn’t used it for years, and I based my opinion on statements like this!

Maybe I am in the wrong place. If the accepted definition of a “musician” is anyone who can use BIAB, …… then I definitely am in the wrong place. I hope not, but maybe so.

I find that kind of statement unbelievable!

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EDIT: Maybe we should add a new term to the music biz. “Music Programmer”. That would cover the “loop” users and folks who can only use BIAB or another program to create music.

That still doesn’t make you a “musician”. You have to earn that title by actually learning to play an instrument. It shouldn’t be “granted” to someone who hasn’t learned to play.

We have people here on the forum who write songs completely in BIAB/RB (with help from other software sometimes). My first impression of that was exactly like yours, Bob... because it isn't how *I* want to use the software.

observation #1: the way I use the software does NOT set the standard for how other people should use it

my brother in law looks down on me no matter what I do. But that's a whole different thread. But regarding BIAB, when I showed him some stuff I was working on, he sneered at me and said "you're just pushing a button"

I replied "OK, then YOU push a button and come up with something as good." He's arrogant enough that he actually took me up on the challenge and messed with my equipment until he was so frustrated and angry that he left spitting nails. He has never brought the topic up again.

Observation #2:
If it's so easy to make amazing music (even with the automation) why is there such a learning curve? Why are forums like this even necessary?

The followup to my observation about classical composers is right on. However, I don't think anybody here is using real band to write neo classical pieces. Pop and country are a far cry from that. Popular music construction is so utterly dictated by the "rules of the genre" that even if you assemble a real band of people, the results will be approximately the same as BIAB output, except for the judgments made by the composer about:
1) which chords to use
2) how to embellish those chords
3) which instruments to use in the song
4) whether to syncopate, rush, delay, swing etc the timing
5) and, if you're composing with MIDI, the creator DOES indeed have note by note control of melodies, harmonies

Observation #3
if you wrote a song (words, chords, melody, harmonies etc), then assembled a band to perform it with you onstage, how is that different from telling BIAB those same things? Is the guy who wrote his chord progression on the back of a napkin more of a musician than the guy who wrote his chord progression on BIABs grid?

The point is that the question of what constitutes a credible musician is completely separate from the question of what makes credible musical software.

OK, yes I AM SERIOUS as I am a musician as I play piano/keyboards, guitar and violin and have done so for over 50 years. I have also played in many many Bands, Cabaret, Folk, Rock and a little bit of Jazz on guitar and on keyboards.I was a musician for maybe 30 years before I discovered BIAB.

ALL my songs, with a few exceptions are composed on piano or guitar. At the moment an old Technics p60 and an Ibanez 12 str or heritage Les Paul, amongst other guitars/keyboards.

Pressing play IMHO does not enhance what I PLAY ,it enhances my original song idea by providing me with the instrumentation I CANNOT play or afford to have hanging around in my house, in case I need that specific instrument. So BIAB, to me, is a "band of musicians" that provide me with the instrumentation that I feel the song requires and many times BIAB gives me ideas for an alternative take on MY song and I have learnt a lot of playing skills from using the Melodist and Soloist. Musical ideas I would never have thought of without BIAB. Sometimes the chord sequences provided by "pressing play" have given me ideas also.

BUT you say

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Maybe I am in the wrong place. If the accepted definition of a “musician” is anyone who can use BIAB, …… then I definitely am in the wrong place. I hope not, but maybe so.
I find that kind of statement unbelievable!
That would cover the “loop” users and folks who can only use BIAB or another program to create music. That still doesn’t make you a “musician”. You have to earn that title by actually learning to play an instrument. It shouldn’t be “granted” to someone who hasn’t learned to play.

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I would assume that many owners of BIAB, and forumites, may fit into this category and take offence.

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Saying that anyone who can use BIAB is a musician is OFFENSIVE to anyone who can actually play an instrument!

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SO from that statement you say that I am somehow offending myself, which I find offensive. It was just my opinion that this wonderful program, BIAB, is in my arsenal of musical instruments as I have spent many many years learning how to make musical sounds out of it to MY satisfaction, so TO ME it IS an instrument.
So I STILL stick to my statement and say: "A musical instrument is a device created or adapted for the purpose of making musical sounds. In principle, any object that produces sound can serve as a musical instrument—it is through purpose that the object becomes a musical instrument ". Thanks initially to BIAB my computer is now adapted for the purpose of making musical sounds and by the above definition becomes an instrument. For clarity I ignore the presence of my D.A.W., virtual instruments and say, by choice, I do not use the Real Instrs and Real Drums as I prefer the flexibilty afforded by MIDI.

Is a singer not a musician because they do not play a physical instrument, but they "play" the voice? Was Pavarotti a musican or just a singer? And by the same rote was Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols a musician as he also portrayed his idea of music by his vocal chords? He definitely wasnt a singer IMHO . Is THIS MAN making music as a musician or is it just a man with a wood saw and a bow??

I believe that the term Music Programer has existed since the 1980's and the advent of the mega synths by Yamaha, MOOG, Korg etc. I too spent time programing synths using system exclusive albeit MT32, TG100 and DX7 but gave up as I had to press the reset button too often. I too have used loops from ACID and the EJAY series.

I feel I have to give you the advice I received from an old teacher who said "Read what is actually written NOT what you THINK is written, two different things".
But then that is the alleged beauty of the Internetz, anonymity.
But no offense taken.

Alyn

Pat,
In total agreement with your posts.

Alyn

Buying a top-of-the-line table saw does not make you a carpenter; but a good carpenter is more likely to envy your expensive table saw than he would an inferior model

The power of any tool is that it gives the craftsman an advantage (speed, precision, power, flexibility) that he would not have without the tool. Tools don't provide expertise, but a good tool DOES provide the ability to use expertise more efficiently.

Although music making software enables you to quickly assemble components of a song, a person who knows something about music, computers, equipment, interfaces, MIDI, Continuous controllers, soft synths, hard synths, chords etc etc, it is going to get different results than somebody who doesn't.

Observation #4
when bad results come from a good tool, it speaks more of the person using the tool than it does of the tool.