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Richard, Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.  
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bobcflatpicker, Quote:
I hope you’ll accept the apology.
Yes.
In my 2nd post I also said NO OFFENSE (offence in US English) TAKEN, so an apology was not really nescessary.
Anonymity is the alleged beauty of the Internet, it is also the curse. 
Alyn
Last edited by gibson; 09/11/11 02:44 AM.
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Quote:
Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
that phrase is worded a little differently here in North Carolina... but if puddin' is what you normally find in diapers, then it means the same thing. 
Quote:
We've been stirrin' it pretty good already, in case you hadn't noticed.
but all in good fun!
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If we all had the same opinions, it would get boring pretty fast.
100% agreement! Which is why I think its better to discuss controversial topics in a respectful non-volatile way rather than to have a policy of censorship in which any topic that people might have different opinions about is banned.
Everybody wants freedom of speech, but most forums go about it the wrong way. They try to stifle the expression of opinions.. but that's the OPPOSITE of free speech!
The trick is for the whole group to insist that opinions be stated without denigrating the opponent in any way. Trust the idea to stand on its own two feet. Once a group starts to enforce that sort of respect, it becomes possible to go ANYWHERE without causing flames.
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Quote:
Hi,
I'm a big fan of band in a box and recently showed the program to another musician when she visited me. I thought that she would be really impressed but I ended up sorry that I mentioned it to her at all. It came across that she thought she was far too professional to consider using the program and that band in a box is for lesser capable musicians than herself, amateur musicians like me in fact
I know everyone’s opinion is different and she is perfectly entitled to hers, just wondering has anyone else has this reaction to band in a box too?
Regards
Jan
I'll add a comment to this.
Let's say you are a guitar player/singer/songwriter and you've written this wonderful song you want to share. What is the difference between using BIAB to do the parts you can't do and hiring other players to do the parts you can't play?
Same goes for live. I keep hearing that line" interaction between the players is important". I'll tell you a little secret. (Some musical genres excluded.)I've played pro for a well known artist. You played it his way and his way only. All the time every time.I've also opened and done monitor sound for many, many pros and they say the same thing when asked. "How do you like playing for so & so".In most cases it's "well if you don't mind playing the same 10 songs over & over & over the same way with the same little stories etc. It's OK".
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
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Quote:
If you are not the headliner and are just a hired gun as we call them BIAB or RB offere way more ability to express yourself then a real band.
Bingo!
Regardless of how anyone may feel about BIAB, I think it is a true statement that Peter Gannon has done more to empower the average musician than anybody else in this century. Maybe for ever.
(Thanks, Peter and teamPG)
SUCK-UP-O-METER
0_________/_100
but, hey, they deserve it
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Quote:
I have lived to see the same musicians who panned BiaB at one time come to me and pay me money to make backing tracks for them to play a certain performance, and I often do that with BiaB as the basis. ac
Same experience here...(except for the money)
I've tried to get my musician son interested in BIAB for years... but he thinks he's too cool for that. However, he recently asked me to add some cool jazz keys and sax tracks to a song his jazz 3 piece recorded.
I keep telling him and everybody else... "maybe YOU can't play every instrument.. but BIAB can..."
BIAB-IS-COOL-O-METER
0______________/_100
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I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box. They just don't seem to get it. Many like to play along with records - copy licks. There is some value to that but with Band in a Box you can make your own stuff, pretty easily too.
- Bud
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Quote:
I can't get most of my musician friends to look at Band in a Box.
So, you might say it gives you one-up on them. You can do what they do, PLUS!
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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I was in Sam Ash some time ago messing around on various keyboards. I started talking to some kids who wanted to learn more about music. They can already play fairly well and I started talking about Biab and they loved the idea. Another guy was standing off to the side and he said he liked what I was playing and why would a good player like me mess around with a toy program like Biab? I started by asking him what he knew about it and he basically hadn't seen it for years. I told him a bit about the new stuff and I also asked him about his set up and what he was doing in his home studio. He proceeded to tell me about a fabulous home studio he has and some commercial clients he's worked with. All Mac based using Logic Pro with thousands of dollars worth of outboard stuff and I could tell right away he's not only a pro level player, he's a pro level recording engineer too. I immediately switched gears and started talking about forum member Harvey Gerst. If you guys don't know him, google his name. He's a heavyweight producer who owns a multimillion dollar studio in Texas. He will use Biab to fill in some tracks for his lower end clients who can't afford to hire a full band for demos. He posted some examples here a few years ago and they sounded awesome.
The point here is it all depends on who you're talking to and what level they're at. If it's somebody like that guy in Sam Ash, I would agree, to him Biab is a toy program unless he needs something very specific like Harvey does occasionally. Same thing with a music teacher I know who has three locations, he has maybe 10 good teachers working for him and he too has a very elaborate home studio set up in his living room no less including a 9 foot concert grand. He uses Biab all the time but just for his students to practice with. As for him personally he never uses it and has no interest. He even told me point blank as far as he's concerned, it's just for the kids. If he needs to lay down a track of whatever instrument he brings a friend over, gives him a beer and they lay down the track. Oh yeah, his wife is a classical music professor at Cal State Long Beach so she can bring in all those players too.
Obviously I disagree with these assesments but from their point of view I can see where they're coming from. These guys are true pros and even if they might wind up liking Biab, they don't have time to load it up and learn it. They're purists with the ability to actually live up to that artistic purity. They have no interest in automatic backing tracks.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob,
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
If you can afford and have access to pro level musicians, then you’d be crazy to use BIAB, except for sketching out tunes and practicing.
Since most of us can’t afford or have access to pro level musicians, then BIAB is a “Godsend” for us. It allows us to be able to create songs with a myriad of instruments and styles. No other program that I’m aware of can do that.
We all know the cliché’s about why BIAB is better than live musicians, (doesn’t eat all your food and drink all of your beer, doesn’t hit on your girlfriend, doesn’t smoke all of your weed, is never late for practice, isn’t a bad influence on your chil’run, CAN play almost any instrument, …etc.)
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 09/13/11 03:24 PM.
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No you are right on on all of that. Sure if we had access to Pro talent we would all record that way. But most of us don't.
For me it allows me to build darned good backing tracks, and to make music that i enjoy, and can share with others without the cost, hassle, and involvement of a pile of other musicians (both singers and instrumentalist) LOL sorry Bob I had to, my rascal took over!
I do think that a lot of folks over look it because of the stigma of generated material.
I have posted links songs that were made with Biab at other sties and had folks that run small studios that are making a living with those studios, comment in amasement at the quality of what i posted.
I just say i worked with a REAL good BAND!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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There's quite a few players I know who aren't interested in doing a duo or trio gig without a drummer. They will only work with a full band and that's great I certainly prefer that too. Still, I like to play and lately it's been 50/50 full band gigs and small trio gigs where I'm doing the "band" with my Korg arranger keyboard. I could do those gigs with Biab on my laptop too but it's just a bit easier with the Korg.
We could load up a few Biab songs on our smartphones and just play them when the subject comes up...
I'll bet if I did that at Sam Ash I would have raised a few eyebrows. Hmm, I just thought of that just now. I think I will do exactly that.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Honestly, even if I could afford "pro" level musicians, I prefer a computer for all the reasons I have stated all along. My computer never got drunk at a gig, hit on my girlfriend, forgot an arrangement, asked for more money, hit clams all night, whined because it didn't like three of the songs in the set.... I prefer to keep the human element out of things as much as possible.
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Quote:
Thanks for the best, and most honest post on this topic.
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
But we shouldn’t misrepresent the program and say it’s a legitimate replacement for talented musicians in a "pro" setting. It isn’t. JMHO, so please don’t flame me or try to "debate" me for speaking the truth.
Not a flame, just an alternative point of view:
I don't think its a matter of being afraid as much as it is a matter of discretion.
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Pat,
I think you are missing my point.
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has.
Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I hope that clarifies my comment.
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Quote:
Pat,
I think you are missing my point.{/quote]
fact is there are at least two different points here, and which one a person embraces depends on which result he wants to obtain
Quote:
People should feel free to make comments that are, or appear to be critical of BIAB without feeling obligated to “balance” it out with another comment praising it, thereby pegging the SUCK-UP-O-METER you referenced out at 100%.
Are you suggesting it would be appropriate, if invited to someone's home for an evening of enjoyment and a free meal, to spend the evening talking junk about the host's cooking, or decorating or way of dressing or amount of ugly? in the name of helping him improve?? Even if everything you said was true?
I use that metaphor because PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product. If you paid for TV advertising time for your bluegrass band, and the camera man kept interjecting audible statements like "But a lot of people don't like this band" I doubt that you'd be OK with that.
Quote:
Over the years, if people hadn’t given honest comments that are sometimes critical, I don’t think PG would have made as many advances as it has. Customer feedback isn’t always supposed to be good.
agreed. But here's where discretion applies. If you're at a party and you have a piece of food visibly stuck on your chin, you'd obviously want to correct the problem. But would you rather that somebody shouts out at the party "HEY BOB! THERE"S A CHONK O' MEATBALL ON YOUR CHIN! HAHAHA " or would you rather have someone take you aside quietly and advise you of the matter so you can correct it and maintain your dignity at the same time?
Quote:
If I hadn’t pointed out the shortcomings of BIAB in handling bluegrass in a lengthy thread that was joined by a lot of folks, including Peter Gannon, it’s possible the changes in BIAB 2011 wouldn’t have been made. (FYI: BIAB used to treat virtually all bluegrass as 16th notes, even though it’s written and played as 8th’s. It was a huge problem. I believe that was fixed in 2011, but since I’m stuck on 2009 for financial reasons, I’m not sure.)
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. The corollary to the SUCK-UP-O-METER is the INDISCRETE-O-METER, and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Quote:
My criticism wasn’t done for the purpose of slamming the program, but to get someone to pay attention or at least acknowledge the problem. Posts on the wish list didn’t do the trick. The thread did. Peter participated extensively, as did Mac and several other PG “gurus”. One or two folks who didn’t really participate in the discussion, at the end of it they said they followed it and learned a lot about note values and timing, and how that relates to styles and finding what works and what doesn’t.
I've noticed that at work hourly employees often take the same tactic of open confrontation in meetings with management when they feel that issues are not being addressed fast enough. And it is true that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. But its also true that its often presented as an employee who is smarter than management telling them how dumb they are.. when in fact, management is generally far more aware of the issues than the employee. Such confrontation often forces management to divert resources that should really be used elsewhere just to appease the squeaky wheel and prevent insurrection. (ie damage control)
Furthermore, in this case nothing that was said could possibly lead to a product improvement. In a nutshell the comments were entirely subjective, along the lines of why some people choose not to use the product. How can a company fix people's choices? You seemed to be validating the idea that its not a suitable tool for professional musicians, when in fact many other people have commented that lots of pros DO use the product.
Such statements made in an open forum intended to favorably advertise the product are at best misleading and at worst, just plain inaccurate. A professional musician reading the forum, who might have seen MAc's comment and wanted top try it, might have seen the subsequent comments and changed his mind.
Quote:
I hope that clarifies my comment.
ditto
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Pat, Quote:
PGMusic provides this forum for a specific purpose, and that purpose is not our entertainment. It is an advertising medium for their product.
I respectfully disagree Pat, but since you believe that, it explains your thinking.
Forums for any product aren’t there for the company. They exist for the users. The users pay for the forums by purchasing the product, and with most of us, we’ve purchased it over and over in the form of upgrades. We aren’t “guests” or “freeloaders” here, we’re paying customers.
In addition to paying for the forums by purchasing and promoting the product, the forum users frequently act as “tech support”, saving PG time and money.
Quote:
I've noticed that Peter tends to get involved when topics require damage control. ……………………. and if Peter is gettting involved in your thread, it's probably an indication that the topic would have been better handled in a less visible way.
Silly me. I thought Peter got involved in that thread because he’s a good businessman and he wanted to address the problem and find out the specifics so he could do so. (Actually I do believe that’s why he did). The problem had been brought up on the forum before, but never on a dedicated thread and in a detailed manner. Near the end of the discussion, he said he’d make a concerted effort to fix it. Being a man of his word, he did just that.
Peter’s participation wasn’t “damage control”, as you insinuate. It was a company owner showing legitimate concern for a problem and wanting to fix it. I appreciate that. It speaks well of him and his company.
The forum isn’t an “advertising medium”, as you suggest. It’s a tool for the users, (one that we are paying for). It also increases the customer loyalty because the users build relationships and realize they have more than just “customer support” to find solutions to their problems.
To compare it to being invited to a "free" dinner at someone's home is ludicrous. We paid for the steak, so it's okay to say how we'd like to have it cooked. (Bad analogy I know, but it's yours). 
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I have been reading this thread with interest. I have to agree with Bob. It appears that
the SUCK-UP-O-Meter has maxed out. I have used this program on hundreds of gigs in Church and private parties and Casinos. It has been received very well. I only use Drums
and Bass and a touch of Keys sparingly. I recently had the pleasure to jam with an old friend that is a Pro Jazz keyboard player. After a couple of my BIAB arrangements he said " Let's do it without the machine". It just isn't for everyone. But it is a fantastic practise tool.
Dave
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I too have had the reaction that biab is for learners. What a load of cr*p ! Like guitarman I just can't get to grips with real band as much as I've tried.
I'll just stick with my original set up of biab and then working with sonar.
On the other hand there's been MANY expert musicians who've been highly impressed with biab and have been dying to try it out for themselves.
I'm delighted at the work that goes into each release. All to often you have software that is several years old ( no namedropping I'm afraid ) you get the latest version which si a few hundred quid ( dollars ) dearer than the one you paid for only to find there's been little change in the bells & whistles. Personally I think that's disgusting.
I have tried a couple of other music programmes but nothing came near my beloved band in a box.
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Quote:
I think a lot of folks who post here are afraid that Peter Gannon is going to see it and get pissed and tailor their comments accordingly.
Well, that ain't it.
Trust me on that one. *grin*
--Mac
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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