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#12922 02/03/09 01:43 AM
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Look, I enjoy BIAB as much as anyone else, and I do appreciate the willingness of forum participants to help me climb its huge learning curve, but I really get tired of all the constant politically-correct B.S. on here about how BIAB is so easy to learn.

It is NOT!

And every time anyone ever mentions the fact that it is a big, cumbersome program, and that the User's Manual is almost incomprehensible, the "hallelujah choir" jumps in and makes it clear that the poster had better not say "the emperor has no clothes", or he won't be welcome on the board.

And the tutorials are too big to download on a dial-up (yes, a LOT of people are still on dial-up), and they try to claim that everything is REALLY SIMPLE to do. Then, when you try to do what the tutorial said, you find out it's not nearly that simple.

I am getting so tired of that! Would you please stop it? It's really IRRITATING!

Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn, and stop beating people over the head when they say so!

Thanks.

My head beating will no doubt commence now.

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Uh...I agree with you! I have tried to use it "seriously" since version 7, and still have only the basics down. It is a very deep program....

No beating from me at all....


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Hi Bill,

Is BIAB hard to learn - yes

Is BIAB worth the effort - yes

After 14 years do I know everything about the evolving BIAB - no

Has it made me a better musician - yes

Would I be without it - no

Am I still learning about Music and BIAB - yes

BIAB is a music creation program for musicians and those that are commited/determined to learn

Unfortunately and I agree that the manual has grown like topsy year on year - but I use the Topics page in BIAB Help for most answers

jazzman

Last edited by Jazzman; 02/03/09 03:46 AM.

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I agree with you 100%, Jazzman.


MY SONGS...
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BIAB is not easy to learn but once you see how the software is structured, you will realize it is easier than the other music software when it come to making REAL, WORKING, PROFESSIONAL produced music.

It saves so much money than going to a studio.

Have you guys ever went to a studio to record a single?

That's the comparison. Studio vs. BIAB

And once you realize that square off, you will realize that BIAB is worth studying.

Having said that, BIAB is too complex and has too many features that the Manual does not do justice.

And I have said this before. We need a book called "Using BIAB" or "Tips and Tricks for BIAB"

This should book should be a bestseller among the BIAB community.

It could be an E-book!!!'

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" it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn"
I think the clue is in the phrase "non musician" I would imagine that the majority of posters in this forum are actually musicians and therefore have some grasp of musical knowledge and know the difference between Am and C6, for example.
I see a difficulty in understanding a "music composition" program if one's knowledge of music is minimal as I assume yours is.
I too would have difficulty if a "become an attorney" software existed and I expected that program to teach me, as a novice, how to prepare a defence, defend a divorce or sell my house with a few mouse clicks.

You say for us to "Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn" as you should display the honesty to admit that as a non musician you do not understand the basics of music AND that this is where your problem, in my opinion, lies. But there is nothing wrong with that lack of knowledge but be willing to spend a lot of time learning.
I misunderstand your use of "PC" which I assume is "Politically correct" a term applied to language, ideas, policies, or behavior seen as seeking to minimize offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups.
I agree with Asian sun and Jazzman also.

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I got BIAB this past Christmas so I consider myself a new user. I had BIAB for Windows 95 and BIAB 7, but I never bothered to do anything with it -- couldn't get past the midi sounding stuff. RealTracks forced me to give a try!!

So I've had it 6 weeks or so and I have built about 10 songs for the www.rpmchallenge.com thing I am doing. I have all the chords in (mostly), instruments picked and now I just have to do all the vocals, my instrument parts and make edits/adjustments as needed. Since I am actually trying to produce something, I feel I am putting it through its paces a little. I am probably only using 1% of the functionality, but BIAB (and RB) are doing just great. Still trying to get the pieces to sound "real" and get that groove going, but for what I have done so far BIAB has been incredibly easy and straightforward.

The only question I would have, is this program geared at all to "non-musicians"? If you don't know what chords go with what, what 4/4 or 3/4 means, the concept of measures, choruses (I still like intro, verse, chorus, bridge, outro terminology), rests, shots, holds, pushes ...... how are you going to use BIAB effectively?

Kevin


Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud
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I think gibson hit the nail on the head. BiaB is an easy program to start using IF you are a musician, i.e. add some chords, pick a style and go. Having said that it also takes a musician a good deal of time learning all the ins and outs of BiaB; how long I don’t know as I’m not there yet. As for a non-musician I can’t even comprehend how difficult it can be.

My suggestion would be to take a song you like and try inputting it into BiaB. I would also read the manuals and ask many question here, however I would start the questions by saying “I’m a non-musician and I need help…………..”. That would put potential responders in the right frame of mind for their response.

I would also recommend the book Music theory for Dummies. That could put you in a good starting place.

Also remember owning music program will not make you a musician. It can help you tremendously but you have to put the time in both learning the program and learning music. That is not an easy task. For example you could give me the best state-of-the-art illustrator/paint program but I’ll NEVER become an artist. Heck I can’t even draw stick figures correctly sot the program would be practically useless for me.

Good luck.



Last edited by MarioD; 02/03/09 07:48 AM.
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Hi Bill,
Firstly, I think I can understand your frustration and I agree Band In A Box may not be easy to fully grasp but I believe even a true novice can achieve at least something from the program. Progressing is of course dependant on how willing one is learn. Jazzman said it best, but there will be those who you eloquently describe as the "hallelujah choir" having their say but I think it is all well meaning but can be stifling all the same. For what it’s worth, I find it most productive to work out what I want to do step by step from the help files as I need it (retaining what I’ve learnt is another matter… must be gettin old ;o)
Also If I’ve ever needed to know something I just post a specific question on the forum, someone ALWAYS knows the solution (usually Mac!) I do wish you success and hope you get to grips with it ……At your own pace of course.
Dave.

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Quote:

The only question I would have, is this program geared at all to "non-musicians"? If you don't know what chords go with what, what 4/4 or 3/4 means, the concept of measures, choruses (I still like intro, verse, chorus, bridge, outro terminology), rests, shots, holds, pushes ...... how are you going to use BIAB effectively?

Kevin




I am a non musician, I love music but have a very hard time understanding music theory. The manual only helps after you start to grasp the structure of the program But.....
Yes it is geared to non musicians that want to learn something about music.
I will say again, for me, I learned by putting in randomly 4 to 10 chords and playing those in the style that first appeared in the program. I then learned how to change styles and trying that.
I then copied chords from a song I liked and found out that it sounded like crap til I saw what bars looked like in a Hymn book. I'm about as far from being a musican as possible But... I have learned much more than the cost of the program, that that in itself is worth it.
Do I understand it, No, But I can make a decent backing track for my wife to sing to.
If you import a midi file of a simple song, that will teach more than the manual. That's where I learned to turn off the style while the midi played.
This forum, will teach more than the manual, I think it would have been great to archive all the forum from years ago, but the storage space and cost would be greater than what Peter needs to support, I'm sure.
BTW, just last week I learned from others here about rest,pushes, shots, ETC.
Since I don't know music theory, I don't understand why a rest can't be programed for a certain duration, maybe it can, but I don't have a clue yet, but someone will tell us, maybe today and another puzzle piece will fit.
For me this has been a 2 year course in music and community, but that's just me
Wyndham

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Wyndham... Your attitude and approach will serve you well!
Happy learning buddy,
Regards,
Dave.

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Bill, I like what you wrote in your profile when you registered:

"I really enjoy using BIAB, but I have a lot to learn. I can't make the program do what I want yet, but I'm going to keep climbing that learning curve. I would appreciate any help you can give me."

That is a good attitude, and should do well for you if you can stick with it.


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BIAB is definately a very 'deep' program as far as options are concerned. This is probably from years of growing pains and making the leap from Midi to RealTracks and RealDrums. In addition, trying to please everyone has made it more difficult as one has to sort through the different styles, RTs and RDs. Personally, I'm thrilled with the RTs and RDs, but I can relate with the frustration of the original poster although no specifics other than the tutorial was mentioned. PC? I don't think so.

I certainly have complained about the growing pains of BIAB and my background is music and computer science. I'd love to see a re-write of BIAB using wizards for song parameters (style, instrumentation, etc).

These folks will try to help you solve a problem. Some will get resolved, others won't. Don't feel that a lack of music knowledge or being jumped on for a post should keep you away from the forums. If you want to vent about BIAB, go ahead. Chances are that it has already been vented. The fact that you're willing to use the manual and tutorials says a lot about your determination though.

My .02

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May I respectfully suggest that perhaps you've developed a bit of a mental block.
If you look upon it as an exciting challenge, and take it one step at a time, you will enjoy the learning curve, and have lots of fun.

I found that when I first bought the programme, it took about half an hour to understand the basics and start producing simple backtracks, but several years down the line I'm still learning exciting new stuff every day. If ever I get to the stage where I know it all, I'll use a bad word, because I love learning new things.

And the advice given about learning some music theory is spot-on.
Once you get into that, you'll find it fascinating. The way it all fits together mathematically never ceases to amaze me.

Now I'm going to take my own advice and tackle Realband. Now that looks really tricky, but I know I can get there with some persistence and the help of the guys and gals on the forum.

See you at the coda!
Mike Laatz


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Quote:

Please just display the honesty to admit that it is a difficult program for a non-musician to learn, and stop beating people over the head when they say so!

Thanks.

My head beating will no doubt commence now.




No head beating from me. If you're not a musician then it logically follows that you don't know what a Digital Audio Workstation is, as in midi, synthisizers, other hardware, using a computer for recording, audio waveforms, all that kind of thing.
If you've had some college, then you know about course prerequisites. You have to have some experience with these things or you're dead in the water. It's like taking an engineering course when you didn't pass high school algebra. If you think Biab is tough, try paying $600 for Sonar Producer or any other big name DAW and see how far you get.
Compared to these other music production softwares, Biab is by far the easiest to learn. Doesn't mean it's easy if you can see the distinction.
if you have no experience in the field, it has all the tools to get you there if you're willing to apply yourself. That means learning basic chords, scales, musical terminology and related Windows functions. If you're not willing or able to do that, the program is not going to do it for you.
As far as marketing, what would you have Peter and the experienced user base do? What is a musician? At what level do you draw the line to the general public concerning what you need to use the program? How many people can grab a guitar and strum some basic 3 chord folk or country songs? They know those chords and they can count to 4 and not much else. Are they musicians? Can they use Biab? Yes, if they're also somewhat of a computer geek in another field. If they know nothing about a PC except how to send an email and play a youtube video, probably not.
Those of us who are pro, semi-pro musicians, recording engineers, educated hobbyists, etc know what it takes to create backing tracks at the level Biab does. Biab is an amazing program and it's very easy to use when compared to the alternatives. If you have no clue what those alternatives are, then you don't know what we're talking about.

Bob


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Hi Bill........

Yep it ain't easy. Neither was learning to play the guitar, or trumpet or the keyboard, none of which I have mastered by any means. The bass being my highest area of proficiency has still not been mastered. Then I decided to start doing my own home recording. Mostly for the enjoyment I get from the final results, as well as the challenges that it forces me to overcome, by learning things that at one time I had never heard of. If it were easy everyone would be doing it.

Having acheived your position as an attorney, I'm sure you have overcome challenges much greater than learning a software program. I am often tempted to look at Sonar, cubase, etc, but since they all do basically the same thing, albeit in a differnt way, I would only lessen my time available for learning the PG products that I am just now starting to get aquainted with.

The learning curve is all part of it, many of the guys on the forum have taught me a lot, and I have a lot more to learn. I've had music therory since 6th grade, then high school band, then started learning the guitar and it wasn't until the guitar that I really became interested in what I was doing.

You either enjoy it or you don't. If you get enjoyment, you keep pluggin, if you don't, you hang it up.

Pretty simple.

Of course you could always try Songsmith. I hear it is about the easiest to learn.

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Hmmmm...well, I do agree that BIAB is not easy to learn COMPLETELY. However, I think it's the single most amazing piece of computer software that I have ever used--bar none. I recently did an off-the-wall version of 'Rolling In My Sweet Baby's Arms' just to try out the mega-cool bluegrass Realtracks. I sent an MP3 file via email to a working musician I know, and he asked who the players were and what parts, if any, I was playing!! It's that damned good. [I'm NOT that good.]

How do they do those Realtracks so well, anyway? Astounding...

If you compose any music, BIAB is a real godsend. Where else can you plug in a C5 cord in place of a C9, and instantly hear the difference? Or swap out styles, change instrument load-outs, tempos, ad infinitum.....You see, the actual problem is that BIAB is remarkably deep and gets more and more complex as you get into using it. Toucher is exactly right, IMHO. Think of BIAB as an INSTRUMENT that you have to learn to play, and proceed to teach yourself and learn from others with that concept in mind. BIAB is an amazing, complex, and beautiful musical instrument that will require patience, dedication, and practice, practice, practice.

The results often blow my feeble mind away...and I'm a real nimrod.

Finally, this just may be the best software support forum on the net, so go ahead and use it, even if you just lurk about soaking up knowledge. I'm a real information leech with the stuff on this forum, and may I add that it also has about the best developer support of any product/forum also.

P.S. The 'old timers' here can get a bit testy when folks do a little flaming on BIAB.


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If BiaB was just a fun simple and easy-to-use program I don't think it would be used by so many musicians all over the world. Yes, to fully use the program to it's max capability and push the envelope you will have to dig in and study hard and get a lot of BiaB time on your clock. I don't think that most users will use the program to that extend (I sure don't).

It is however pretty easy for one to:
A: type in some chords.
B: click play
C: click stop
D: Change the style (finding the right style is another thing)
E: Change the tempo
F: Change the key

With these simple steps you can build a simple song. You actually started using the program.
Later on you'll want to add rests, shots etc. Simply look it up and use it; Slowly build your knowledge step by step by adding a little function one at a time.

No BiaB is NOT an easy program to learn.
Yes, you can start using BiaB real fast, almost without even reading the manual.

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RE: Songsmith...

It's kind of a toy, but I hope that some people who try the musical nibble that it provides will desire a full course meal, and perhaps turn to BIAB. And remember that Songsmith will most likely be all that a lot of folks want or need. Any kind of musical creativity is better than none [although I might be persuaded to provide a caveat for Hip-Hop...]

Oh...OK, Hip-Hop guys--don't get your baggy drawers in a knot. But, really, just get some Acid Loops and you're off and running, aren't you? Really.


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"Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah" 1

1. Leonard Cohen, b Montreal....


John Conley
Musica est vita
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Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.

Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.

Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!

And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.

The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!

2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

  • The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
  • MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
  • Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
  • Playable RealTracks Set 5
  • RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
  • SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
  • iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
  • 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
  • FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
  • MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
  • MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
  • Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
  • Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
  • RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
  • SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)

Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!

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