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I actually want lipstick. And neon. A broadway theme.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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You would think it would be easy to update the GUI. When I was programming using Borland "Visual" products, each time a new OS GUI would come out, they would update their tools. It was a simple matter of opening the program in the new RAD Environment and swapping out the controls for the updated versions. They were almost always backward compatible; those that were not required very little programming-- usually just the change of a property or two.
Now if PG is using a text editor rather than a RAD Visual Environment , it could be VERY time consuming to change all of those elements. Switching over to a RAD would probably require a complete rewrite. I can't imagine what the code for BIAB must look like.
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analogy:
My Mom wasn't a messy person but she had a weird idea of order and she adhered to it. Her organizational scheme didn't make sense to anyone else. One day my brother decided he was going to help her by cleaning her house and rearranging the mess into what he considered a more orderly scheme
My Mom was furious. She couldn't find anything anymore.
Likewise, there are thousands of seats of BIAB in use around the world... many of them used by people whose musical productivity pays the bills. Making a dramatic change to the interface is almost certain to require a learning curve that wouldn't necessarily be a welcome change for everybody.
I hated the new interface in MS Office last go-round. Things I previously mastered I suddenly couldn't do at all.
(just one man's perspective)
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Journeyman
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I'd simply ask pgmusic to not change the look or function of BIAB so much that there'd be a new learning curve---or to the point of feeling like having to learn a new program. As a non-techie, who hates to fool with computers, except to play music, it's taken me years to finally feel comfortable with the present setup. At my age, I don't want to start over. I don't even use the new mixer, which many rave about. I prefer the old system. Just give me new real styles and upgrades in sound and performance.
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Pat,
I have yet to meet a person that enjoyed the introduction of the MSOffice 2007 'Ribbon' interface.
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Quote:
Pat,
I have yet to meet a person that enjoyed the introduction of the MSOffice 2007 'Ribbon' interface.
Glad to hear it's not just me. But if that's true, it makes a pretty definitive statement about how well the users of an established product accept major changes to the interface.
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I have lived through GUI changes with products, some minor, some major. Most have been an improvement. Office was not.
Here's GUI changes that I liked immediately:
Jamstix 1.x to 2.x (huge improvement and huge makeover)
Matlab (don't remember the version but when they went from command line only to some kind of GUI was a great leap forward)
GUI change that took me a bit but still liked it in the end after a few hours of use:
Tracktion 2.x to Traction 3.x
With MSOffice 2007, not only did they change the GUI, they changed quite a bit of VBA underneath and programs that I had written in previous versions of VBA required some changes. That was REALLY irritating.
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Apprentice
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Most "updates" I get for software are nothing more than re-arranging menu items and icons, and add a couple of useless new "features".
It's nothing but a huge racket.
- Bud
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The 'new' volume app was a modern interface.d
I'm hoping for a similar playin' app, for much of what I do is play.
Sort of the jukebox on 'roids. Nice.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I like Comic Sans, cartoons and color.  And no offense to anyone but IMO car colors are mostly boring and have been for years. I totally get Pat's mom and like Bud find most software updates with a new look little more than a pain to learn. With skins/color adjustments each can suit his/her own taste or keep it as it is. I'd rather that than some big overhall to look like everything else already out there. Just my two cents. 
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Quote:
I'd rather that than some big overhall to look like everything else already out there.
Just my two cents.
Distinctive features, distinctive look.
Same ol' features, same ol' look.
Take yer pick.
(I'll pick "distinctive" every time)
A lot of research has gon einto color combinations and design arrangements that make people pick one product over another when they're sitting side by side on a store display. And, apparently it DOES make a difference on the first purchase, when impulse is the only thing a shopper has to go on.
But all of my decisions to upgrade had nothing to do with the box design or menu arrangement. I've always felt like there was NOTHING else out there, no other product, that did exactly what I want to do musically in a way that makes sense to me.
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The hippest is gonna be THE CLOUD interface. I hear PG and Jimmy Dean Sausage Companies are working on it ...
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.
Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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All I know is, the BIAB GUI looks very old. I don't think it has changed since the very first Windows BIAB, I believe for Windows 3.1. (I started with BIAB before that, with the DOS versions.) Other apps do not look the same as 20+ years ago, but BIAB does. It never even graduated to Windows 95. (In fact, it took quite a while after the long file names feature which began with Win95, to be usable with BIAB.) (Not a problem, but another hold-over from pre-Win95. Win95 introduced the "Program Files" folder, in which since then, 1995, almost all Windows programs have been installed. Except for PGMusic apps, which still install by default in the root directory, as in DOS and Windows 3.1. This change in Windows was made more than 16 years ago, yet PG Music never made that change.) (Not that I mind that aspect (root directory installation), but it is another indication of an app that never modernized.) Even the fact that the default directories are still called BB, RB, PT, rather than Band-In-A-Box, Real Band, and Power Tracks, is a throwback to the short file names days. Yes, BIAB is very retro. (Which could carry a certain nostalgia factor, for the early days of computing.)
Not only the program's GUI, but the documentation looks exactly the same as the very first DOS BIAB. Same thin blue book. One thing I have never found very strong about BIAB is its user manuals, not clear and easy to read, etc. Compare them for example, with the user namuals of Cakewalk and Sonar, which come with much better manuals. (OK, many apps these days do not come with a paper manual at all, but only electronic. But compare the BIAB paper manuals with those of other apps that do include them. ANd even the electronic manuals from BIAB are not as readable as others.) IT is surprising that the form and looks of the documentation has not changed one bit since the very first BIAB.
Not only looks though. Some bugs reported and complained about for decades have still not been fixed--for isntance the ability to have more than one chord change per beat. Limitations like that do not seem to get fixed, but only more features (and hundreds more realtracks) seem to be added.
Yes, BIAB is way overdue for a makeover.
There are some good things about BIAB though, that I am glad never changed. For isntance, for support, one can interact on these forums directly with the creators and programmers of the app, even with the CEO, Peter Gannon. Whereas "support" for many software companies these days, consists of, after calling and waiting for hours on hold, then finally reaching a human being, a person in India or China who is difficult to understand, and who knows nothing about the product. With some companies you have to pay to get any support at all. So kudos to PG, for retaining its good support.
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Here's my guess - not going to say it's the case - but I have strong suspicions....
I bet that the underlying code used to build up BIAB and PTPA and RealBand simply doesn't allow for the 'modern' button renderings and so forth. I'm guessing it's also the reason why the VST/VSTi clock timing issues and likely the ASIO bugginess.
I don't know what they are using, but it's entirely possible it's something compiled from a language from Borland from the 1990's with workarounds and so forth to allow it to function reasonably well in modern OS.
At my place of employment, we use a CAD software that is highly specialized for working with 3D files of scans of the ear canals of individuals. Every now and then, we get an accidental 'look under the hood' with certain bugs that pop up. Sometimes the look includes a section of uncompiled code and our IT guy has said that some of the code looks like Pascal from 10+ years ago.
With all that said, it's not the worst UI I've seen for a music product. That honor, in my book, belongs to this product I've just discovered over at KVR forums called ChordWare. Have a look yourself:
[image=http://www.chordwarepa.com/aaa1131.JPG][/image]
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I think that the program's usability would benefit just with a little bit of reorganization of its Menu and Options system. Yesterday, for example, I was looking the way for generationg scales over a chord progession, a new feature from v2011 that I've never tried until now. It took me about 15 minutes finding the way to do it, because it was just not obvious for me that such a feature would be under "Soloist" menu, and because the help file explained how that feature works, but not where it is. Then, I remember the first time I tried to assing a VST synth to a MIDi track, It took me some time discovering that such a feature wasn't present on the track right button-menu, but trough an icon that was hidden by default (or, even less intuitive, under "Option -> MIDI / Audio Driver Setup -> VST/DXi Synth Settings). An now, after several years working with the program I'm just looking the way to hide the piano on the main screen  Another key could be simplification. I don't understand, for example, why having so many different picker windows and filters for doing a thing that is essentially the same: choosing the right tracks for your song. Try to explaining a newcomer (who, remember, just want the right track for his song) the difference between Realtracks, Realdrums, MIDI Styles, RealStyles, MIDI TRacks and Loops (and where are their different picker windows), and he'll probably will get crazy. In my opinion, if all Realtracks, Realdrums, Realstyles, MIDI Styles, MIDI tracks and Loops could be choosen from a single Picker Window the workflow would be greatly improved, specially in this critical area, where having so many styles requires a simple and effective search system. Alowing the customization of the menu system and other elements of the GUI would be great too.
Last edited by Cerio; 12/21/11 12:35 PM.
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Cerio, you make some good points.
I think the popularity of these forums is a direct result of some of the "option overload" or redundancy for doing certain procedures.
I found that just hiding most of the unused buttons really helped reduce the clutter and simplify my workflow.
Yes you can hide the piano, in BIAB its under Opt.>Preferences> Display 2nd line from top and in RB it's near the bottom of the list in Options (Hide Piano).
Maybe a Hide or Minimize button on the piano would help but then again, it's one more button.
Another possibility could be the to open the programs in either full or stripped down mode where features could be turned on as needed.
Lots of good input in this thread and ways to approach it but in the end it will never please everyone.
Happy Holidays to all!
Carkins
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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