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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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(post deleted upon request of original poster)
Last edited by PeterGannon; 12/07/11 08:57 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I just would like to say that I just wanted to ask what I, as a customer would like to see in the product, that's all. But I deeply respect the company's policy, and I didn't wanted to sound rude; if I did (that's one of the problems of not being able to express yourself in your own language) I really apologize.
Latest BIAB version, latest build.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I don't think anyone should be offended with your statements and the way you phrased them. Folks might not agree with you, but you are always entitled to your respectful opinions. (oops, I do see that Peter removed his initial response to you, though!)
Is an interface overhaul overdue? I think it is, too. BUT .... in order to do an interface overhaul, the team would have to probably work on just that for six months to a year. Would they be able to make enough sales with a redesigned BIAB 2013 to justify the expenses? That is always the main question that needs to be answered ... and I think PG Music has been answering "no" to that question so far.
RealTracks -- first and foremost they have to deliver the "popular" ones, the ones that 90% of the audience wants. Right now it is pop, jazz and country (which covers a heck of a lot of ground).
Kevin
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Well I haven't bought 2012 as yet so I don't feel the disappointment as you do.
There are numerous threads about the biab GUI and how it can be redesigned or not, and to be honest a lot of people are just happy with the way it is.
There have also been a few discussions about making biab appeal to younger people and I have thought about this too.
The truth of the matter is biab is mainly an older persons software (I can count myself in this group) a lot of retired people use it, very very few young people either appear or post on this forum even though they have been shown biab by seasoned users on here.
PGmusic has a loyal following of older users who mostly have the disposable income to upgrade twice a year. Why ruffle the feathers of the older users by introducing a new GUI that many of the users won't like?
And the user’s loyalty is second to none. PG could make a realtrack with the sounds of 2 empty coke cans and a lot of users would buy it.
Why would PG want to change a winning formula!
Just my 2 cents here.
Musiclover
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As a person who's been intimately involved in "writing" software, original
and software tools, Coding and interfaces since early 70's.
I would have to say this:
First the target audience would be your primary users group, keeping in mind
the product audience growth.
Second, a piece of software, whatever the application is "Never Done".
You set goals(new functions), re-write of additional facilities to this software to a point
where you simply "Stop". Your goal points have been reached and your there.
Future growth, are the ideas presented by inhouse people and your customers.
Things you've learned rewriting/building the current product and
the "gorilla in the closet" New Technologies.
Above is intentioned to help understanding of what a piece of software is.
My opinion only, but to me a Program is an "entity", cannot touch and feel
it, but an entity.
Thanks,
Seeker
Last edited by seeker; 12/05/11 05:04 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I would want the Coke cans to be half-filled for the B substyle......
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I would want the Coke cans to be half-filled for the B substyle......
or maybe use pepsi one's
musiclover
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Quote:
There have also been a few discussions about making biab appeal to younger people and I have thought about this too.
The truth of the matter is biab is mainly an older persons software (I can count myself in this group) a lot of retired people use it, very very few young people either appear or post on this forum even though they have been shown biab by seasoned users on here.
PGmusic has a loyal following of older users who mostly have the disposable income to upgrade twice a year. Why ruffle the feathers of the older users by introducing a new GUI that many of the users won't like?
And the user’s loyalty is second to none. PG could make a realtrack with the sounds of 2 empty coke cans and a lot of users would buy it.
Why would PG want to change a winning formula!
Just my 2 cents here.
Musiclover
Excellent point. I'm 66 and I know a bunch of folks here are over 50. This is just this forum though I have no idea of the true customer base who never bother with this forum. I personally know 3 of those, I've suggested this forum to them and while they are loyal customers they have no interest in posting here.
I just bought a new Kurzweil PC3 and what struck me about it is how much they've added to the hip hop/euro techno side of things. I looked at dozens of youtube videos and other videos demoing this board and a lot of it maybe even the majority was stuff I've never heard of, have no interest in and know nothing about. I mean this thing has 16 arpeggiators and can use 32 layers per patch. You should hear some of the weird, far out incredible rhythmic soundscapes this thing can put out. I found one interview with one of the engineers and he said they specifically are aiming at a younger crowd. Kurz has been known for years as having the best acousitic instrument sounds around for what is now traditional rock, jazz, country plus classical but a bit weak in the other areas. My PC3 has a VA (Virtual Analogue) synth section that does some amazing stuff. I'll never use it but I admit it sounds awesome for that kind of thing. PG would have to do something similar in order to attract the kids and even then with the name, probably not. It's like when Buick tried to go after a younger crowd when all of us of my generation simply think of Buick as our grandfathers car and that's it. We wouldn't be caught dead picking up a date in a Buick.
The jury is still out as to whether or not Kurzweil will get a younger crowd or not and I have no idea if PG could make that transistion either. I think to even have a chance PG would probably have to create a whole new program and not call it Band in a Box bacause I doubt the hip hop generation would warm up to that name and I just don't see how all us older loyal customers would care for or buy Biab if it included all these heavy duty trance/techno/hip hop capabilities. I'm certainly not an expert in this stuff but I do read about it and listen to it from time to time. It is a completely different thing to create those kinds of techno computer generated riffs and other stuff from what Biab does now. I don't see how those things could coexist with Biab as it is but maybe I'm being myopic.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I think Musiclovers comments are very astute. I am turning 62 on Xmas Eve and have had success getting people my age to use BIAB. I have had no success with younger songwriters and musicians. It may partly be the out of date GUI in this iPhone age but I also think songwriters and musicians in their 20s and 30s are not into or schooled in traditional pop jazz song structures. To over-generalize, they like static, repetitive song structures that disfavor melodic and harmonic development. They can fire up some loops and jam over them and be done with it. (Not sure why Peter introduced loops in this edition--seems rather primitive when compared with the elegant RTs and RDs.)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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These are very interesting insights. I had never really thought about the 12-bar blues and 32-bar ballad as being "archaic" structures in Western popular music, but that could be the case... Never underestimate the nadir of culture we are experiencing as education of the masses gets reduced to "whatever your property taxes can fund."
As harmony, and eventually melody become DE-accentuaized as musical elements, we are stripped to bare rhythm and rhyme ... So LONG culture as we know it !!!
Jan - 12 Core AMD Ryzen 9 3900X
32GB DDR4
Win 10 64-bit
Samsung m.2 SSD Boot drive,other SSD internal and USB drives.
MOTO 2
Ketron SD90
Aerophone AE-30, Yamaha WX-7
Yamaha RX-v381amp
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The truth of the matter is biab is mainly an older persons software
Just my 2 cents here.
Musiclover
how do you know? have you ran a statistic ?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Yes, I'm just a little bit disappointed with the new version......
My God, just a bit ?
Here's my 3 cents...I have the 2011 version, I am 37, I write music professionally, and I think that the glass is half full, not half empty. Biab is not perfect, like everything else (perfectionism is just a sign of insecurity), but especially with v2012 the improvements, to me, seem notable....especially the 'simpler arrangement and realtracks' function, the mixer window, etc....things I actually wanted to see on Biab for years. You complain about the undo, etc...that's ridicolous, I remember when it wasn't even there.
Frankly I don't give a monkey about the interface, I don't have to sit and admire it like an antique painting. The interface does what it does....I have seen much worse. It's a good interface, and frankly, I think it's the last one of our problems. I actually don't want it redesigned, it would only burden us with relearn to locate again the endless options and functions. Life is too short for that.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Enthusiast
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Jazzmammal... I saw in your post that you bought a Kurzweil PC3! Just curious as to which model, the one with the Kurz 2500 synth built in? I realize this is a BIAB forum, not a Kurzweil one, but I'm still using a Kurz PC-88MX model and have been pondering whether to upgrade now or wait out to the next model.
Just to keep to the Forum topic.... I am 64 and have been using BIAB for over 10 yrs. I like for it's simplicity over other products I use like Sonar X1. I think that one can quickly learn enough to start using the package, plus it's sophistication allows for years of toying around with it.
Cz...
BIAB,Bandlab Cakewalk,Kontakt, Cantabile, SampleTank4,IK BX-3, VB3, iZotope Suite, IK TRacks, Melodyne Studio
Kurzweil PC4SE, AXIOM-61key & IKiRigPro-32key boards, Roland SD-50 MIDI, Behringer 404HD, Maschine MK3,TC Helicon Voiceworks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Kids like my nephew and his band have:
Boundless energy;
they can carry gear all night and stay up until 3 a.m. and go to work for 8.
they have many new options past someone's garage, (like old warehouses in the near downtown area where someguy sleeps there and is a part time musician)
and
there's always a new guy wants in the band.
They don't make squat, it's still a hobby, and they play once or twice a week, and get themselves a once a month gig where the bar owner buys them drinks and runs a battle of the bands.
As to marketing, let's face it. The genius behind the band is a medical doctor and no dummy. His brother is an award winning jazz guitarist. They have contacts, mostly in the jazz world. Maybe though, they can run a few minutes up the road and get Elvis Costello to sit in. We'll have to leave out his wife Diana Krall though, the OP dude is tired of jazz.
Now I was recently in Europe for a month and I saw classical, jazz, and tyrolian bands. Mostly the latter, lederhosen and all. (I have a cool one with the filed antler horn made into a sort of shiv. Weird. But I ended up staying 2 days longer in Austria, and NEVER took the Sound of Music tour.
At the end of the day, wailing against the way it is does not get one anywhere.
In my not so humble opinion, as a sort of a backdrop to this I am helping deliver a course at the local university in Music Education. The course covers many genres, but goes away from a first year student's comfort zone. I get to do 1750 to 1950 on external influences on musicians, and the evolution of a musician from fool (ie. sitting with them in the kitchen and performing before or after him), to being considered an equal with the counts, dukes, princes etc. who where there employers, then jump to
Electronic computer based music, and the demonstration of that.
It's been a ride I won't do again, but I'm too tired to carry that on.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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Quote:
The truth of the matter is biab is mainly an older persons software
I was young when I started using BIAB..... where did all those years go?
One way I judge the upgrade is how much time I spend enjoying the changes.
The mixer in 2011.5 was great, the 2012 use of plugins on tracks & the simpler way of adding midi from other styles is just brilliant.
I have loved BIAB from day one. I have lot's of music software with great interface, workflow etc. But I get more enjoyment out of BIAB.
Col
iMac, 3.7 GHz 6-Core Intel Core i5, BIAB MAC2024 (802), Audient iD4
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When I upgrade, I always ask myself ...
Is this worth $xx to me? So far, I've always answered with a resounding "yes indeed!" Another reason that I regularly upgrade is because I want to support PG Music and help to keep them making BIAB better and better.
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The truth of the matter is biab is mainly an older persons software
The group of musicians who first embraced MIDI were naturally enthralled with BIAB. Their kids, who grew up online hearing awful MIDI on websites played thru the PC sound card don't tend to like MIDI. But I predict that the Real Tracks and loops are a game changer. They bring the paradigm back to audio (and awesome audio at that!)
ALL (as in 100%) of the young musicians I've met through my musician son record audio, using loops, samples and actual playing of instruments. The current version and direction of PGMusic products is totally compatible with that.
Quote:
I have had no success with younger songwriters and musicians. It may partly be the out of date GUI in this iPhone age but I also think songwriters and musicians in their 20s and 30s are not into or schooled in traditional pop jazz song structures. To over-generalize, they like static, repetitive song structures that disfavor melodic and harmonic development. They can fire up some loops and jam over them and be done with it. (Not sure why Peter introduced loops in this edition--seems rather primitive when compared with the elegant RTs and RDs.)
I agree wholeheartedly. That IS the current state of music production. HOWEVER, all trends are cyclical, and theory-based music is to entertainment as the black suit is to fashion... it will never go out of style completely.
This is another way in which PGMusic products stand head and shoulders over the competition... while all the other guys are dumbing down their products to meet current trends, PGMusic continues to make software that caters to the sensibilities of real musicians.
When the smoke clears, PGMusic will still be standing, IMO.
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followup to the "software for old guys" thought:
I've tried to get my Jazzer son interested in BIAB for years, and he has always declined, even when I offered to buy it for him. This year I sent him a link to the announcement of BIAB 2012 and asked him if he wanted it for Christmas...
he replied with an enthusiastic YES for the first time.
More than once over the past year when I played smooth Jazz and Fusion samples from BIAB, he commented that they sound better than his band. He's right, they do.
When I deliver it on Christmas, I'll take time to show him how to use it so he doesn't get frustrated and give up prematurely. He will be my first young person convert.
It has been said that a ship travelling at full speed takes time and distance to turn around. Paradigms don't shift quickly, but they do shift constantly. What was statistically true 5 years ago is not necessarily what will be statistically true 5 years ahead.
Real musicians of every age need BIAB and RB. They just don't all know it yet.
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Personally, I think that BIAB has evolved nicely, and RealTracks have evolved incredibly. I do agree that I wish there were more RTs of styles such as Celtic, Classical, and musical percussion (as opposed to drums -- things like Hang Drum, Tambourine, and Hammer Dulcimer would be awesome).
Remember also that you can mix and match styles. This includes the many, many non-RT styles that can have RTs judiciously added to them. As PG showed with even the first RealDrums, just one well-added actual instrument can beef up the MIDI and add to its verisimilitude.
As to the interface, yeah, lots of different possibilities have been mentioned. But a lot of 'em would involve more programming than I think PG wants to get into. May I offer a suggestion? Changing the fonts (in Preferences/Display) can help a lot. (I changed the song title font to Arial Black, and the chord sheet font to MS Trebuchet.) So can changing the color scheme (in Preferences/Colors). And I have to go through and delete the buttons I never use (they're only one Reset Toolbar away). It ain't exactly skinnable, but BIAB can be tweaked to your taste.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2026 • Reaper 7.57 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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Quote:
a. Undo doesn't work well. If you are working with, say, a specific Realdrum and want to try another one, you have to memorize its name, because Undo doesn't work for these kind of things.
AGREED! This one has been an annoyance to me for all the years I've been using BIAB and it has not changed, that I can tell, since my first use of BIAB which, IIRC was ver 10.
Quote:
b. Screen resize doesn't work well, it only affect to the chords screen, not the the rest of the interface, including the notation window or the Lead Sheet Window.
Also agreed! This is a minor annoyance to me - but it is an annoyance and quite true. the window resize should work much better than it really does.
Quote:
c. Regenerating part of a solo with a real Track doesn't work well, the program (at this level) don't recognize musical phrases as a whole, and using this feature you get unmusical cutted phrases.
I don't use this feature a lot, so I don't know the true limitations or shortcomings for soloing. but I would add that regenerating melodies for portions of songs also acts the way you describe. sometimes they work correctly, others, not so much. usually if you let it regenerate the entire song it works OK, but not for portions.
Quote:
On the other hand, honestly and with all respect, I was expecting a whole completely different sets of Realtracks, other than those in Country, Jazz and Pop/Rock reigns. Don't get me wrong, I love jazz and Pop realtracks, and I use them extensively in my own work (personally I find country styles less useful, because here in Europe Country Music is usually seen like a kind of american "folk" music, but I understand (and respect) that an important part of PG Music customers use and love these styles). But I think that Country, Jazz and Pop / Rock styles are already well covered, at least in comparison with other subrepresented genres, like Latin, Reggae, Soul or even Funky Music.
I would like to add Contemporary Christian and Contemporary Gospel to that list.
Quote:
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of PGMusic products and a very satisfied customer who always recommend BAIB to a lot of young people who unfortunately not always find the program interesting just because it's difficult to get used to, because the kind of music it's focused on, or just because it's not very visually attractive. I really think it's an unique product that produces much better, musical and realistic tracks than any other VSTi on the market. It's just that I believe that with some rethinking about the core program, its interface and the integration of its features could be still much easier, attractive and better.
While I agree that the GUI could be better andmore attractive, easier to use, improved workflow, I'm not necessarily advocating a complete overhaul. some workflow improvements would be nice, the things mentioned above I think are crucial.
I'll also add that I would love to have some other improvements like TRUE 6/8 time (I hate the "suggested use of 4/4 in place of 6/8!), and other TRUE odd time signatures. Honestly I can't understand why at least 6/8 is not truley implemented.
Another improvement that I think is important would be allowing for Roman Numeral modulation display. I think we should be able to change keys in a song and have the Roman Numeral notation reflect that! It really throws me off when I change keys, but the Roman numerals are still in the original key!
Just my 2 centavos.
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Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac and save up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special offer—available until May 15, 2026. Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page to explore all available upgrade options.
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
Our Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK are loaded with amazing add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is included with most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac packages, but you can unlock even more—including 20 unreleased RealTracks—by upgrading to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49.
Holiday Weekend Hours
As we hop into the Easter weekend, here are our holiday hours:
April 3 (Good Friday): 8:00 AM – 4:00 PM PDT
April 4 (Saturday): Closed
April 5 (Easter Sunday): Closed
April 6 (Easter Monday): Open regular hours
Wishing you an egg-cellent weekend!
— Team PG
Update to Build 10 of RealBand® 2026 for Windows®!
If you're already using RealBand 2026 for Windows, download build 10 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!
If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® users: Build 1237 is now available!
Already a Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows user? Stay up to date and download the build 1237 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
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