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Is that finally possible in 2012, without resorting to complicated workarounds? It occurs in music, seems like by now BIAB should be able to do that. IT should work for triplets as well, including quarter note triplets.
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John Conley
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You can try Edit|Expand your song. This doubles the tempo and essentially gives you more beats to work with.
R
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Edit 'expand' is only good in theory IMHO and not a serious option unless using a solo piano/guitar accompaniment. Even then you'd only want to maybe alter the tempo at specific bars, not the whole tune.
Best results I've found is two sets of changes, one for the regular 4 beats and another for the eighth notes in between. The first set can be moved to the soloist or melody channel and then offset by 60 ticks or less/more for a human feel. Tweak this to make it more convincing.
Makes a mess of your sheet though unless you merge the second set of changes with the first in Copy/Move tracks.
And you're right... its a relatively complicated workaround that surely ought not to be required in this day and age.
Regards
Alan
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How are you doing that, Alan? Play, Slide Tracks?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt, you can do it by using either Play > Slide Tracks or in the Edit Melody > Timeshift Melody. The trick lies in not being too precise about the 60 ticks. Something like 50-55 often works better.
Regards
Alan
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Quote:
Sadly no.
Regards
Alan
That capability has seemed to be a wish of many for a long time.
If any PGMusic staff is reading , please let us know when that will be implemented.
Thank you.
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What piece of music changes chords more than 4 times per bar? I know some classical music does in effect but I'm hard pressed to recall anything from a standard repertoire I know that requires that feature.
This is indeed asked for, I'd just like 3 or so examples off the top of someone's head. Realistically, in order to rewrite the math behind this to accomplish that, then change the input methods, etc, well that must be quite a task. So let's build up a wish list of songs that we can't do and see what shakes out.
John Conley
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Quote:
Edit 'expand' is only good in theory IMHO and not a serious option unless using a solo piano/guitar accompaniment. Even then you'd only want to maybe alter the tempo at specific bars, not the whole tune.
the ability to do this is a function of the style more than it is a function of the program. Notes Norton sells styles that do what you want... and I believe there are PG styles that do the same thing. And the ability to make your own styles that solve this problem has been part of the package for years.
But, having said that, here is a workaround that requires both BIAB and RB together (or RB alone):
I've found that it is interesting if all the instruments don't change chords at the same time. In cases where you want one instrument to change chords more often, while other instruments play againsts a simpler set of changes, this might work:
In BIAB You could edit-expand and generate a single instrument accompaniment to get up to 8 chord changes per bar. (If you don't need that many chord changes, then simply hold the same chord until a change is required. The point is that you have 8 opportunities per bar instead of 4)
Then export to Real band, generate the single track at the BIAB expanded tempo to keep the chords the way you had them. Then change the tempo to what you really wanted and add the rest of the tracks. Keep in mind that the rest of the tracks will only have 4 chords per bar, so you'll need to trim out the unneeded chords before you start to generate new tracks. Also this means that the subsequent tracks will not make all the changes made by the original track... but that can add interest to the song if you judiciously trim the chords so that the extra chords work in passing.
Since real Band doesn't automatically regenerate everything unless you tell it to, the expanded track will continue to have twice as many chord opportunities. It works best with sustained chords or simple patterns that don't reveal the tempo difference.
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Quote:
What piece of music changes chords more than 4 times per bar? I know some classical music does in effect but I'm hard pressed to recall anything from a standard repertoire I know that requires that feature.
This is indeed asked for, I'd just like 3 or so examples off the top of someone's head. Realistically, in order to rewrite the math behind this to accomplish that, then change the input methods, etc, well that must be quite a task. So let's build up a wish list of songs that we can't do and see what shakes out.
I find that it's not so much a matter of replicating written chord changes so much as the ability to define your own accompaniment patterns on the chord sheet that fit the rhythmic movement of the tune.
Sometimes you might want patterns that give you a rhythmic/chordal embellishment of the main chord, a sort of cadence within a cadence if you like. e.g D7,Eb7, Emaj7 where Eb7 is an eighth after D7 and Emaj7 an eighth after that...just one possibility.
This capability along with shots holds and the ^symbol to define anticipations would be all you would need to make user defined patterns that fitted almost any song.
And there's the rub, because any improved BIAB arrangement capabilities using overriding commands, run counter to the idea of 'auto' accompaniment as a one-click-it-does-everything-for-you routine that can only be altered at the level of the stylemaker.
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/09/11 05:55 AM.
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Well, as replies go, that was a nebulous as corncrake sightings on Colonsay. That said I liked the list of songs where they are written in not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5, 6, 7, 8...etc. and so on up to such things as 22/4, which I would eschew. Once we get to 50 on the list we can present it with a petition! Take 5 is #1, it's weird, and Brubeck himself just had a birthday, I think it was 91! 1. Take 5/Brubeck...but I forget the sigs, though it may never need more than 4 chords per measure. 
John Conley
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after re-reading what I wrote above, if you're starting in BIAB, it would probably be easier to just export your expanded track as audio, then start a new RB project at half the BPM and import the expanded WAV. That way you don't have to enter the chords one way, generate, then delete half the chords in the same project.
This is another reason why RB is a good DAW companion for BIAB... you can keep loading and generating tracks after BIAB did its part. That adds options you wouldn't have with other DAWs
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Quote:
What piece of music changes chords more than 4 times per bar? I know some classical music does in effect but I'm hard pressed to recall anything from a standard repertoire I know that requires that feature.
This is indeed asked for, I'd just like 3 or so examples off the top of someone's head. Realistically, in order to rewrite the math behind this to accomplish that, then change the input methods, etc, well that must be quite a task. So let's build up a wish list of songs that we can't do and see what shakes out.
John-
It is not that it is common for songs to regularly change chords every eighth note, eight chords to a 4/4 bar. That would be pretty uncommon.
But it happens sometimes in songs--not for a whole bar, but a particular beat on which there are more than one chord.
Think of the following rhythm in 4/4--two quarter notes followed by three quarter note triplets. On the quarter note triplets the chord changes on each note. That would not be so uncommon. YEt, is there a way to do that in BIAB, with the normal interface, not having to resort to complex convoluted workarounds?
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Quote:
Well, as replies go, that was a nebulous as corncrake sightings on Colonsay.
That said I liked the list of songs where they are written in not 2, not 3, not 4, but 5, 6, 7, 8...etc. and so on up to such things as 22/4, which I would eschew.
Once we get to 50 on the list we can present it with a petition!
Take 5 is #1, it's weird, and Brubeck himself just had a birthday, I think it was 91!
1. Take 5/Brubeck...but I forget the sigs, though it may never need more than 4 chords per measure.
Sorry if I wasn't being clear but it's not that difficult a concept. Having the ability to make a chord sound as an eighth note makes it easier to write your own accompaniment patterns/riffs on the fly.
Often modern jazz players will at times play short chordal riffs made up of 8th notes in their comping patterns. I want to be able to replicate that on the chord sheet. Hope that's clear enough for you.
I'm sick and tired of people in this forum disrespecting others because they make suggestions for improvements that don't happen to fit in with their musical aims.
Regards
Alan
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It's easy enough to post in the wish list forum and hope for the best.
I'm sure the doc and the software team sit down and look at the user base, the numbers and the desirability of each potential feature. To deride those of us who try to understand the opportunity on the basis we are tiring doesn't cut it for me.
is.
There are of course other options. Oliver Gannon who has our equiv. of an OBE for jazz performance and his contribution to music, is Peter's Brother and helps with the program. You could email him. He's a busy touring jazz guitarist, but I'm sure he'd be more attuned to your plight(s).
I, on the other hand, try and limit myself to simple jazz trios, playing piano or horn. At even a modest tempo I'd be incapable of 8 chord changes to the bar on any regular basis.
I'm sure creative users can find a way to silence bars and stuff a full strum 8 chord changes or more to a bar while the audience goes wild.
I see rhetoric but no list of tunes or even common progressions I can examine. Perhaps my understanding is pre-rhetoric and neanderthal, but I watch hockey, even the fights.
The other question is always this. If you can play it, why do you want to the back up band to do it too? I've never, in all the years, got a good reply to that.
John Conley
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The problem ( as I see it) is it is not just the need for more chords per bar, but also the resolution of the bar for where you can place the chords. With quarter note reolution only 4 chords are posssible, with eight note, 8 chords... and so on. Now BIAB can push a chord to place in at an 8th note resolution but then it can't place a second chord an the next eighth note... So while John has a good point and I agree (this is unusual  ), rarely do I like to play four chords, or more) per bar except slow tempo stuff however, However, where these chords are placed in the bar can be critical.. Does that make sense?
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Quote:
Is that finally possible in 2012, without resorting to complicated workarounds? It occurs in music, seems like by now BIAB should be able to do that. IT should work for triplets as well, including quarter note triplets.
the thought occurs to me that the reason this same question keeps getting asked is because people insist on regarding the panels where chords are entered as though they were measures... but they're not!
Sure, in many songs the structure works out that way, but the logic of considering those panels as measures breaks down when you need more than 4 chords in a measure (but can't fit more than 4 chords in a panel)
It is the users responsibility to understand the software, not the manufacturer's responsibility to accommodate user misconceptions. If you consider each panel to be nothing more than a 4 chord grid (NOT a measure) then it starts to make sense.
If you need more than 4 chords per measure then you need more than 1 panel per measure, simple as that.
As stated many times before, the ability to use more than 4 chords per measure is a function of the style, not of the program. Many people have tried to use an inappropriate style in a song that requires more than 1 chord panel per measure, and they didn't get the results they wanted.... but that's not PGMusic's fault, any more than it would be their fault if somebody tried to use an inappropriate style in any other situation!
Maybe we are going about this the wrong way... there are probably a handful of songs that people struggle to recreate in BIAB because they require more than 4 chords per mesure. Maybe if we identify those songs and provide expanded styles that work for those songs, this poor dead horse could stop beng beaten. There are already many such styles in the style picker. Start by searching for the name of the song you are trying to duplicate... you may be surprised to find a style made for that song
If its an original song, you may need to make an original style if you can't find one that's close enough... and the ability to do that has already been provided.
I guess the ultimate question is: how much of the creative process is the user's responsibilty, and how much is PGMusic's responsibility? The demands one makes on the software are directly related to how one answers that question.
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Quote:
Quote:
Is that finally possible in 2012, without resorting to complicated workarounds? It occurs in music, seems like by now BIAB should be able to do that. IT should work for triplets as well, including quarter note triplets.
the thought occurs to me that the reason this same question keeps getting asked is because people insist on regarding the panels where chords are entered as though they were measures... but they're not!
Sure, in many songs the structure works out that way, but the logic of considering those panels as measures breaks down when you need more than 4 chords in a measure (but can't fit more than 4 chords in a panel)
It is the users responsibility to understand the software, not the manufacturer's responsibility to accommodate user misconceptions. If you consider each panel to be nothing more than a 4 chord grid (NOT a measure) then it starts to make sense.
If you need more than 4 chords per measure then you need more than 1 panel per measure, simple as that.
As stated many times before, the ability to use more than 4 chords per measure is a function of the style, not of the program. Many people have tried to use an inappropriate style in a song that requires more than 1 chord panel per measure, and they didn't get the results they wanted.... but that's not PGMusic's fault, any more than it would be their fault if somebody tried to use an inappropriate style in any other situation!
Maybe we are going about this the wrong way... there are probably a handful of songs that people struggle to recreate in BIAB because they require more than 4 chords per mesure. Maybe if we identify those songs and provide expanded styles that work for those songs, this poor dead horse could stop beng beaten. There are already many such styles in the style picker. Start by searching for the name of the song you are trying to duplicate... you may be surprised to find a style made for that song
If its an original song, you may need to make an original style if you can't find one that's close enough... and the ability to do that has already been provided.
I guess the ultimate question is: how much of the creative process is the user's responsibilty, and how much is PGMusic's responsibility? The demands one makes on the software are directly related to how one answers that question.
Again, and it would seem that I'm in a minority of one on this, this is not all about songs with eight chords. It's about replicating accompaniment patterns that have chordal movement within an eighth note time base.
Okay, you can make a style that would do it, or use the melody harmony feature to harmonize the top note of the pattern input as a 'melody' then reimport that as a style. But you'd still end up with a set riff as a style pattern with no ability to alter its changes within that riff for other songs/compositions except in the stylemaker.
This might all sound picky to some but for me thinking in eighth notes and defining the rhythmic character of your comping patterns, using just the chord sheet and without the use of the 'style' as such, puts the creative responsibility back into the users hands not the program's. You're forced to think about comping in a way that suits your own aims for the tune.
The chord panel problem is admittedly an issue that could maybe be addressed by an expansion of one bar into two for these purposes, and only as an 'opt-in' function.
The only other program that has unlimited input of chords per measure is Jammer but the issue of being able to view the chords persists unless you alter the view capability. Without holds and shots which that program lacks, its still down to the style riff whether they actually play so it's a bit of a non event.
But then its not so much a matter of viewing the chords so much as hearing them. These eighth note chords are 'passing' or 'lead-in' chords resolving to a chord of longer duration.
Or as was suggested, you could just play it yourself, which isn't an answer in my book when we are talking about improving an auto accompaniment program.
Regards
Alan
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Quote:
Or as was suggested, you could just play it yourself, which isn't an answer in my book when we are talking about improving an auto accompaniment program.
Good point Alan... there are so many ways to use this software that I forget about the ways I don't use it. All of my suggestions apply to the task of using BIAB to rough out a song that will end up as a recording.
Apologiers if my remarks seem to deny credibility to your request.
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