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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Journeyman
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I am thinking of buying a Sony 2GB MP3 Player with 1.8" LCD Screen to play my BIAB files through my PA at gigs. I assume that I can use the earphone out. I would prefer to keep my files as WAV. Will they play on this device? Is anyone doing the same? I'm currently using CD's, but would like access to more songs.
Thanks for all your help,
Frank
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Don't know if that particular device can handle wav files, but you should be able to easily handle finding out by visiting the mfr's website and searching for a .pdf owner's manual or "specifications" on the model.
BUT -- I have found empirically that there is little difference in using WAV files vs mp3 files in live performance provided that you use the LAME mp3 encoder at a bitrate of 128kbps or higher. I like 160kbps as a good tradeoff between filesize and fidelity.
Using the PA system on a live gig, the background noise in the typical room will be much higher than anything added by the compression scheme.
LAME encoder is about the best out there because Fraunhofer stopped development a long time ago as computer technology goes.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I use an M-Audio MicroTrack, and one of the reasons I like it is that it also has RCA line outputs.
I have used other MP3 and WAV players in the past, and always ran into trouble with that stupidly-designed 1/8" mini headphone jack. It is just not reliable enough for pro use. You can get high volume noises into the PA when the connection becomes marginal.
The laptop I'm typing on right now has a broken headphone jack. This has to be the worst designed commonly used audio connection.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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The way to take care of those tiny headphone jacks is to use a "pigtail" connector that is light enough that it will not put too much mass on the 1/8" jack.
I like to use the smallest plug I can find and the smallest diameter cable for at least the first foot or two, and I always FASTEN that cable to something solid about a foot or so away from the earphone jack at gigs. I would also recommend sticking some Velcro like hook and loop fastener to the tiny mp3 player so that you can stick it onto your music stand, keyboard, PA table or whatever. Don't expect a static situation at any gig, things can fall, get knocked off or worse, get pulled away such that too much force is exerted on the tiny earphone jack.
Do the same for use with a laptop.
If you use headphones with your laptop a lot, do the same thing, find a way to attach the headphone cord to something solid, leaving a loop of wire between that point and the jack in the laptop. Or consider a wireless headphone rig.
I've used the headphone jack on several laptops in live gigging with BIAB over the years, and with this kind of care have not had a single problem. Occasionally it may become necessary to CLEAN the headphone jack, this can be done with a very small bit of CAIG electronics control cleaner lube spray applied to a suitable earphone plug, then insert the plug into the jack and rotate lightly back and forth before the cleaner evaporates.
One last thing about using the earphone jack output as a Line Output: Always turn the volume of the player ALL THE WAY UP and then adjust volume at the PA input. This is because an Audio line loves to be DRIVEN hard. You will experience less noise when doing this plus a richer sound. Never try to get volume by "sucking" an audio signal out of the opposite end of the line, this is a recipe for amplified noise.
In some certain few cases, turning the device's volume all the way up may result in a bit of distortion. If that occurs, suspect the battery voltage to be low first. If the distortion is still there with fresh batteries or AC power, only then turn the volume down just enough to limit the distortion. From then on do any Volume adjustments at the PA amplifier. This will get the most you can get out of your hookup. The same applies to a Line Output if it is adjustable.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hey This might be an expensive option - but it's a midi and MP3 filer designed specifically for gigs, with a footswitch (which is great for start and stop - especially useful for tracks which just loop and loop, you can stop them when it feels right, gets around the stricture of having to play every song to a specific format). I used to use a midi filer and midi to generate backing tracks in the 90s (with footswitch) but we moved away from backing track gigs in the late 90s. We've been offered a contract though that we probably will have to take (credit crunch and all that) and we will need to run drum tracks - once the contract confirms this is what I've got my eye on: http://www.hittrax.com.au/hardwaredetails.asp?id=30I can't seem to find anyone who sells it outside Australia, but they ship internationally. If anyone else knows of anything similar, that's maybe cheaper, I'd be interested in hearing. Cheers Paul
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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A small computer might be a better idea. Sometimes you need to go from song to song very quickly, and a little mp3 player usually requires multiple button pushes to select a particular song. Here is how I make my backing tracks and how I use them on stage (plus some of the reasons why I do it that way) http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.htmlInsights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Perhaps a netbook would work well, and is very inexpensive now.
Paul - just curious, how does the Australian currency compare to the USA dollar? And what is "(Ex GST)"?
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Fender Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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We use an Archos player that we bought rebuilt. We like to have to start/stop buttons on the outside rather than going through menus and trying to see them in the little screen window. This works fine for us but we are amateurs and only play a couple of gigs a month. I would recommend something like an Acer, but it may not have a cd/dvd drive. Of course you could just copy from another pc using a flash drive to move files. I would like to have the Acer just for music stuff and nothing else including the internet. Good luck in your search.
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I use ThinkPad notebooks. They are built like tanks, black, and have no lit up logo that screams "COMPUTER ON STAGE" to the audience. Not that there is anything wrong with a computer on stage, but it takes away from a bit of the magic.
Using the method described in the link to my earlier post on this thread, you can go from song to song instantly, you can decide what song you should play next a few seconds before the one you are currently playing is over (reading the audience) and still go to the next song with no "dead air" in between.
I bought my current on-stage ThinkPad in 2002 (it's so old it has a single-core Pentium III CPU). I do one-nighters, and play music for a living. That means my ThinkPad gets bounced around in the mini-van a few times per week (to and from), rolled on a cart as many times, changes temperatures from hot in the van to cold in the air conditioning, sits on a sometimes bouncing keyboard stand, has no "laptop cooling mat", and runs for 4 hours straight, constantly accessing the hard disk to play my backing tracks.
In all these years, it hasn't failed me once. The only problem I had was that on a gig, the hard drive started to make a noise. It sounded like the HD bearing was starting to go, so to be on the safe side, I replaced the HD myself (and I'm a technically challenged individual).
Before the ThinkPad I used small MIDI file players, similar to today's iPod/Archos devices, but for MIDI instead of audio. When one died (I always keep a spare - just in case) and I couldn't get a replacement (obsolete) I bought the laptop and converted everything to 192kbps mp3 files. What a difference! I should have done that much sooner. It made running the backing tracks on stage much quicker and much easier. It felt like a 50 pound weight had been taken off my back (slight exaggeration). I never want to go back to one of those little push-push-push-push-push-button devices ever again.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Apprentice
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Hey Matt
I US dollar = approx 1.5 australian dollars
As i said, it's pricey
BUT
it's built specifically for gigs.
Ex GST - i can't remember what the g stands for, but ST is sales tax. (Maybe it's like VAT in the UK??? Not sure on that one)
Paul
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Expert
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Quote:
Ex GST - i can't remember what the g stands for, but ST is sales tax. (Maybe it's like VAT in the UK??? Not sure on that one)
GST = Goods and Services Tax
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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[quote GST = Goods and Services Tax
No Lawrie, it's "Get Square Tax" 
Cheers,
Keith
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Newbie
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Newbie
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Glad to see this thread, because I'm looking for new ideas, and
hadn't really thought about MP3 players. I agree with Mac that
MP3 quality will be fine.
Years ago used a Win98 laptop, but found it to require too much
attention between songs and broke up my flow, and I was
afraid of reliability issues.
Now I use a Walkman-type CD player that I bought at Walgreens
for $10. I opened it up and soldered a pigtail external footswitch
jack to the pause switch. This works out as long as I remember to
pause after each tune ends. But I'm surprised that someone hasn't
come up with an inexpensive CD or MP3 player that lets you stop/
start/shuttle via footswitches (or at least via switches that aren't
microscopic).
Er, someone please tell me that the premise of my last sentence is
incorrect.
Nate
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Apprentice
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Apprentice
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Hey Nate (and Mac...and everyone else)
MP3 players are fine for use on gigs.
BUT.
You've got to turn the backlight on permanently...forget that and you'll be scuppered at a dark gig (done plenty of them!).
You need to get a power lead for them and make sure you've got it. Don't ever rely on the battery.
They are a PITA between songs if you communicate with the audience. If you're not gonna talk they're fine, program a playlist for your set and play! But if you wanna talk, etc, stopping, scrolling to the next track etc becomes a pain.
The most flexible system I every used to provide backing tracks at gigs was a Midi Filer (I think it was a Yamaha, but we're talking 10 years ago plus so I might be wrong) that had a footswitch (that I've got a memory we paid an electrician to fit, like £10 to £15) and the midi files (drum tracks) were on HD floppies. This was connected to a drum module, and the drum module had 4 outputs so we routed the bass drums to channel 1, the snares to channel 2, the hi hats and crashes to 3, and percussion to 4. That way we could EQ snares and bass drums separately, add reverb to snares, and also had individual volume control of the various drum sounds.
We'd soundcheck with the master volume at about half, so we had plenty of head room to turn up as the gigs got raucous and we all started playing loudly. Worked really, really well. The footswitch meant we could have some songs that looped for 7 or 8 minutes (though Mustang Sally at that length must have been torture!) and we could stop with the footswitch.
I'd go down that route again in a flash...except they don't seem to make Midi Filers. You gotta buy them second hand - not reliable enough. And the beauty of MP3 is that once you've got a tune sounding right you can record it and voila, it's like that for ever (not always the case with midi!!!). BUT the Okyweb thing I found is about the only MP3 player I've ever seen designed for gigging.
Just my experiences. might help someone.
Oh, the other thing is that you have an iPod (or other MP3 player) and you use it to also provide background music during breaks you can't leave it unattended. Either somone who's had too much to drink will decide that they don't like what you've put on and start scrolling through your iPod and put somethign else on that he or she likes (Not good). Or someone will try and swipe it (yeah, believe it or not, we had someone try to swipe our 'gigging' iPod, whilst it was playing. And we were on a boat. On the Thames. Man, that guy was stupid AND drunk.)
Hope that helps...
Paul
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Paul covers some of the reasons why I prefer to use my laptop on the gig if I have no live musicians.
I have, however, successfully used my little iPAQ and mp3 files for short "hit and run" situations where there will only be one or three songs. Works great.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I use ThinkPad notebooks. They are built like tanks, black, and have no lit up logo that screams "COMPUTER ON STAGE" to the audience. Not that there is anything wrong with a computer on stage, but it takes away from a bit of the magic.
....snip....
Before the ThinkPad I used small MIDI file players, similar to today's iPod/Archos devices, but for MIDI instead of audio. When one died (I always keep a spare - just in case) and I couldn't get a replacement (obsolete) I bought the laptop and converted everything to 192kbps mp3 files. What a difference! I should have done that much sooner. It made running the backing tracks on stage much quicker and much easier. It felt like a 50 pound weight had been taken off my back (slight exaggeration). I never want to go back to one of those little push-push-push-push-push-button devices ever again.
Insights and incites by Notes
Thanks Notes.. I always learn from your little tips. Maybe you can develop a little remote to run from a battery powered wireless to run and switch tunes on the pc? Just kidding.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
<...> Maybe you can develop a little remote to run from a battery powered wireless to run and switch tunes on the pc? Just kidding.
Stan
You can get USB footswitches from Delcom and other companies that allow you to record keyboard sequences. I have a 2 button switch I use at home to keep the strain off a previously injured "pinky" finger. I program one button for the shift key and the other for the Ctrl key. When writing styles I have programmed one of the buttons for approximately 5 key stroke sequences for repetitive tasks.
The advantage of a computer is this...no extensive push buttons.
Sure you can do a pre-arranged set list, but unless you are clairvoyant, how do you know what the audience will want in advance? With a laptop, you can decide what to play next in the last 10 seconds of a song and still start the next song with no gap between them.
It's all explained in http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html
I'd never want to use one of those multiple push button devices again. The fact that I can read the crowd and play what is appropriate for them helps me gain a competitive edge over the other duos in my area.
Last night we played at a new club, a large retirement community. Well it has been there for 15 or so years, but we never played there before. By pacing the crowd and playing the appropriate music at the appropriate times, we had the dance floor filled all night long. At the end of the night, the person who booked us told me that the dance floor has never been so full, the people have never been so tired at the end of the night, and the majority of people came up to him and said that we were the best band they have ever had in 15 years. We have two more dates booked with them already.
If we did set lists or had multiple push buttons between the songs, we couldn't have done that. Leilani and I are excellent musicians and Leilani is an excellent singer (I'm an adequate singer), but there are certainly other excellent musicians and singers around here. I firmly believe that what makes the difference is the ability to read the crowd, react to them, and help them have a great time. They have a lot of fun, go home tired and with a big grin on their faces, and they like the experience so much that the band that does that becomes first pick for the next dance.
Of course, you all can do set lists or take too much time between songs, and we'll continue to get the gigs 
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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That's a great story, Notes, thanks for sharing. I totally agree with making every effort to give the crowd what they want. Our gigs are just gratis an small at the retirement homes, but the folks like tunes from the 30's - 40's so that's what we play. Your Ult. Jazz Fake Book set has fit the bill very nicely. Many thanks for everything.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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