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RealBand
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Hi all,
I'm a big fan of bands with harmonies (Eagles, BeeGees, Abba, CSN) and would like to be able to create my own version of some of their songs, and play them live with friends.
I know RB comes with the Helicon audio harmony plug-in. Can anyone speak to the following ?
1.) Using the plug-in in real-time for performance purposes, any delay issues ?
2.) Quality of the plug-in harmonies generated vs. that I would get from a dedicated hardware box from Helicon ?
3.) Which Helicon hardware box gives the best quality harmonies ? - they have quite a few out there.
Thanks in advance,
Joe
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RealBand
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Quote:
1.) Using the plug-in in real-time for performance purposes, any delay issues ?
Never tried this with the plugin.
Quote:
2.) Quality of the plug-in harmonies generated vs. that I would get from a dedicated hardware box from Helicon ??
Never liked the vocal effects including harmony of the plug-in.
Quote:
3.) Which Helicon hardware box gives the best quality harmonies ? - they have quite a few out there.
??
And finally there are several devices from TC-helicon which use the same engine to generate remarkable vocal effects, including harmony. I purchased the VLT, others have the VL-I and VL-II and others the Harmony G-XT. Been lots of discussion over the years on these items - generally all good. I absolutely love my VLT. It can sing way better them me. 
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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RealBand
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Quote:
Hi all,
I'm a big fan of bands with harmonies (Eagles, BeeGees, Abba, CSN) and would like to be able to create my own version of some of their songs, and play them live with friends.
OK, we're on the same page so far!
Quote:
I know RB comes with the Helicon audio harmony plug-in. Can anyone speak to the following ?
1.) Using the plug-in in real-time for performance purposes, any delay issues ?
using this plugin to add harmony to a recorded track, it takes time to process it... so I doubt it could be used in real time for a performance harmony
Quote:
2.) Quality of the plug-in harmonies generated vs. that I would get from a dedicated hardware box from Helicon ?
I think they're both good, but you'll be happier using the hardware device for live performances, and happier using the plugin for adding harmonies to a recorded track.
Quote:
3.) Which Helicon hardware box gives the best quality harmonies ? - they have quite a few out there.
that's a bit like asking "which is better, Chevy or Ford"
The difference between the various units is in how they trigger the harmonies. If you are a MIDI enthusiast, there is a lot of power in the rack units to control virtually every aspect of the device by sending MIDI messages to the unit. But there is a learning curve.
The floor pedal units also have very good harmonies, but they require an instrument to be played through the device so it knows what key the harmony needs to match. Best way to find out which of the devices best fits your needs is to go to the TCHelicon web site and read all about each one:
http://www.tc-helicon.com/products/
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2008
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In my opinion there's no comparison. Altho I've heard some decent recorded efforts, I've never repeat never heard the plug in sound as good as the hardware. I wouldn't try it live. Which hardware to buy will depend on what your budget is and how you want to hook it up. I am not playing live now and I use the M which follows midi chords. I LOVE it but if I had the bucks I would upgrade to the VLT.  Josie
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RealBand
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2007
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I have the hardware unit Voicelive 2, and the sound is much better from the hardware unit than from the plugin... They have another software version which is better, but it is a specialized system for another software/hardware unit, I forget the name of it.
If you want to use this for live, forget about using the plugin that comes with biab. You need the hardware unit, which is about $799. And like everything else, you gotta learn how to use it to get the best out of it.
Off the bat, the things to prepare for best use are:
1) use a hypercardiod microphone
2) use a solidbody electric guitar if you're playing the guitar. I know what you're thinking, I play acoustic guitar and I see the videos that they use acoustic guitar. Here's what happens, the mic picks up the acoustic guitar and starts harmonizing it. Doesn't happen with an electric guitar. Also make sure it's a humbucker guitar, not a single coil. You'll get a buzz. Just an FYI.
3) If you're going to use a laptop on the gig to accompany yourself with biab, try to generate the harmonies from midi. It works much better and gives you the ultimate flexibility. That's because you're no longer dealing with an audio signal to drive the thing. It works amazing from an audio signal and TC Helicon is to be commended for their work. But nothing will beat midi for perfection in this kind of work. Cause it's just computer talking to computer.
anyway, the good news is that when you set up everything right, and you learn to work with the machine, it sounds great.
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2003
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I use the Helicon GXT. Love it. I totally dislike the plugin. Wouldn't even consider it. It can't be used in real time.
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RealBand
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Hardware here midi driven, love it, the plugin can work for basic stuff, the hardware unit rocks big time. Word of caution, us any unti sparingly or it becomes to much.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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RealBand
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the reason I recommended the plugin for recording is that you can use it on a copy of the track,and experiment until you get what you want. If you record directly through a hardware unit, and don't like it, you have to re-record it.
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RealBand
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Quote:
the reason I recommended the plugin for recording is that you can use it on a copy of the track,and experiment until you get what you want. If you record directly through a hardware unit, and don't like it, you have to re-record it.
So very very true. I learned this lesson the hard way with my recent SWOTR project. While recording the vocal with the VLT sounded cool at the time - it was a mess in the mix (well besides everything else  ). No way to integrate the vocal reverb into the rest of the instruments after the fact. So I am back to singing clean and looking for a good VST vocal processor which can be used during the mixing.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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RealBand
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this is exactly why I downloaded the demos to all of those vocal plugins...
1) they let you record clean and then experiment with the sound
2) if edits are necessary, they can be done in the same environment as the rest of your song
3) they don't have to process the whole shebang.. you can edit just one small note if necessary
as I've been saying, the nice thing about a modular system like RealBand/BIAB is that you can can find exactly the modules that fit the way you work and snap them together like musical legos, and it all works together like one unified system
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RealBand
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Dan,
Can't you turn the effects off when you record harmonies with the VLT?
Josie
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RealBand
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Quote:
Dan,
Can't you turn the effects off when you record harmonies with the VLT?
Josie
I am sure that can be done. The VLT is very flexible in its configurations. But with that flexibilty comes a steep learning curve. Like BIAB, you have to live with this unit for a while to fully utilize and appreciate its capabilities.
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RealBand
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Quote:
Dan,
Can't you turn the effects off when you record harmonies with the VLT?
Josie
yeah, but the discussion is about whether to use hardware or software for vocal enhancement while recording. If you turn it off, then you aren't enhancing, which was the whole purpose.
If you leave a hardware correction on, then the wet signal is recorded, and thats what you've got
But if you record dry, and use software to enhance it, you can add and subtract different plugins all day long; and if you don't like it the next day... you can start over with your clean signal,
Having said that, it's true that you can record dry, then route the dry signal through a hardware unit and back to a new track... but to me, that's more of a hassle than using a plugin.
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RealBand
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Quote:
Having said that, it's true that you can record dry, then route the dry signal through a hardware unit and back to a new track... but to me, that's more of a hassle than using a plugin.
I have had limited success with this route, definitely a hassle to say the least. But since I have found no software VST which can process vocals like the VLT I may try again when time permits.
BIAB – 2025, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, 1TB WD Black NVMe SSD, 2TB WDC Blue SSD, 1TB WD Blue, 2 TB SK NVMe, 6 TB External, Motu Audio Express 6x6
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RealBand
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Joined: May 2000
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Quote:
Having said that, it's true that you can record dry, then route the dry signal through a hardware unit and back to a new track... but to me, that's more of a hassle than using a plugin.
I disagree there. I'd even consider routing it back 'live' while recording and record the processed channel on a separate track .. so the performer can hear it, but that's just me. A decent soundcard mixer applet makes this part easy (as long as it is an option to begin with).
Last edited by rharv; 01/19/12 07:47 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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RealBand
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Quote:
Quote:
Having said that, it's true that you can record dry, then route the dry signal through a hardware unit and back to a new track... but to me, that's more of a hassle than using a plugin.
I disagree there. I'd even consider routing it back 'live' while recording and record the processed channel on a separate track .. so the performer can hear it, but that's just me. A decent soundcard mixer applet makes this part easy (as long as it is an option to begin with).
I figure that routing through good hardware is the "studio" way to get top notch results, and I'd expect that the forum members who are pros would naturally do it that way.
but I'm a lazy non-pro, and plugins are easy.
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RealBand
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I see it as 'for a few seconds work I might be able to keep something I'll want later'.
Dan is using hardware already .. if he can route it (depending on soundcards available), why not?
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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RealBand
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To me the better way is to just sing your vocal dry. Forget the harmony. Then set up your HW unit so that just the harmonies get recorded. Set the track to record and now re-sing the harmonies at the appropriate spots. It's a little more real.I use a much smoother voice for this part so the harmonies aren't as harsh.
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RealBand
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Quote:
To me the better way is to just sing your vocal dry. Forget the harmony. Then set up your HW unit so that just the harmonies get recorded. Set the track to record and now re-sing the harmonies at the appropriate spots. It's a little more real.I use a much smoother voice for this part so the harmonies aren't as harsh.
my approach too. For recording this allows more control. However, it CAN introduce timing issues... but that makes it sound less like an automated harmony.
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RealBand
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Sure wish I had the ear to sing those harmonies without the use of all this technology to find the right notes. But in lieu of this gift, I'm sure happy the technology is available : )
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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