PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Song reviews

there is also the consideration of how Peter Gannon and the gang at PGMusic may feel about changing the mood of the showcase from a very upbeat and fun place to a place where some may stop and wonder whether its safe to post something they just created with BIAB.

Maybe the good comments could be posted to the forum to get potential customers excited about the praise they'll get from friends and family if they buy into the club. Criticism could be handled by PM, and then only to people who have asked for a critique.

Or not. I'm just thinking aloud.

Lots of good comments though... Jan you started an interesting thread!

I feel like I should duck.... but it's not in my personality.

My point as to the happenings on the current "Showcase" is that ppl have more or less formed an online clique akin to a HS lunch room. There are songs posted all the time that are completely ignored or only cursorily commented on even when the user HAS asked for comments/critique. Newbies or infrequent posters (those not in the cool clique) are given MUCH less attention than those who are cliquey, even when their work is of equal caliber.

I think its the Facebook phenomena: "If you 'Like' me than I'll 'Like' you. In any case, perception is that of a Mutual Admiration Society.

If it were truly a place where all-comers can post and "feel proud of their work" shouldn't we at least acknowledge the person's efforts? If this is the point, it seems heartless to let some languish in a corner wondering where the went wrong -- all while your posting flattery for an effort that is half as good (or at least an equal amount of work) as one of the clique members.

As far as actual critique goes let me share a story:

A while back I did an experiment. I wanted to know If I could get honest feedback from the "Showcase" posters. I took 15 minutes and created the WORST possible song I could create and posted it. I milked it in just the way I notice the clique do and posted a few positive comments on their work. Click Here to jump to the thread.

Voila! Unfortunate.*

I decided I wasn't going to post any "real" work there unless:

A: There was a paradigm shift on the "Showcase"
B: There was a new forum intended to help each other improve skill.
or
C: I was desperate for saccharine comments.

I'm sure others feel the same.

That being said, I support the 2 forum idea. Perhaps a "User Showcase" and a "User Workshop" It would be good PR for PGMusic to have a forum where the idea is helping each other improve their writing skill using BIAB and RB.


*[Side benefit: I laughed for days. I still get a kick out of it... it's become a family joke.]

For example, In the past few weeks all of the songs below were posted with no comment. Hardly encouraging! A host of others had only one or two dismissive posts. If we were truly trying to praise effort or engender pride as stated above, would this happen?




http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349604&an=0&page=1#Post349604

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349591&an=0&page=1#Post349591

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349588&an=0&page=1#Post349588

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349548&an=0&page=1#Post349548

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349512&an=0&page=1#Post349512

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=349099&an=0&page=1#Post349099

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=348653&an=0&page=2#Post348653

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=347739&an=0&page=2#Post347739

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=347123&an=0&page=3#Post347123

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=346748&an=0&page=3#Post346748

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=345671&an=0&page=3#Post345671

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=345656&an=0&page=3#Post345656

I admit to this behavior mentioned by PRearden.
Seems to be human nature, and though not 'fair' it is not intentional either. If I get a few minutes to listen to something (which is not often), I usually listen to something that has either gotten a lot of attention, or is by someone I am familiar with and may enjoy.

I don't have time to listen to them all, so I admit I may pick thru in a preferential sort of way.

/ not gonna worry about it much
//not claiming to be in any clique either

PRearden,

As I recall it, that was your first and only song post. I thought we were encouraging to you when you posted your heavy metal song. You sounded like a beginner so I treated you like one instead of crushing your ego. I'm sorry that offended you. Maybe sometime you will share the real you with your music on here. I hope so.


*Editted for typo

Josie

PReardon,

Oops! You caught me! While you were purposely trying to mislead me to try to prove your point, you caught me being saccharin nice to you. As Josie stated, this appeared to be your first song post. I am, and always will be uncomfortable expressing open criticism to someone I don't know. Had you contacted me privately I would given you a more direct and private opinion.

BTW, I noticed you didn't post any comments on your list above, either. As for me, I do try to comment on posts when I have time. I was out sick for most of December, including a week in the hospital. I work usually 50-60 hours a week in my business. I am also a preacher, and preach usually 7-10 times a month, and like to spend time with my family as well. In addition, since the release of 2012, there has been a marked increase in song posts and new members. This is awesome! I genuinely do want the new members to feel welcome, and do intend to do more commenting on posts. Don't expect me not to be nice. I fear my dad would rise from the dead and spank me!

As to the "clique", I disagree with you. True, there are a number of us who post our work frequently. Over time some of us have become "forum friends". No apologies for that. I hope you are fortunate enough to have made friends on your job, neighborhood, etc. that does not make you a clique.

I have come to respect my forum friends here as a pretty classy group. Could be our opinions expressed are too nice at times. But I expect there are quite a few pm's that go around unseen. I don't like embarrassing people. Probably because I don't like being embarrassed.

I do hope you will post some real songs so we can all see what you got, now that we know you're not really as bad musically as you first led us to believe.

I think you have possibly made some good points to make us think. But I don't really respect the way you have gone about it.

I won't post any more on this thread. I've pretty much said what I needed to say. I hope all of you read it in the spirit it is intended.

Respectfully,

Steve

... "Can't we all just get along ?" (RK)

Not much to say on this. I listen when I can and post positive comments usually, on things I truely enjoyed. On others, I say nothing. Can't listen to all of it. When I'm seeking criticism for a new tune / mix, I'll post in the Off Topic forum. When I post anything in the Showcase.. I'm pretty much done with it and posting for...uh, what... strokes, pets, oohs & aahss.. nah, not really... just cuz I like what I've done and want to share it, as most do I presume.

Carry on...

PReardon,

You said ...

Quote:

---

A while back I did an experiment. I wanted to know If I could get honest feedback from the "Showcase" posters. I took 15 minutes and created the WORST possible song I could create and posted it. I milked it in just the way I notice the clique do and posted a few positive comments on their work.

---

I'm not quite sure why you find this funny. Seems to me that all you did was demonstrate:

(a) that the people you describe as "clique" members comment on the work of others and don't restrict themselves to a clique;

(b) that those who regularly use the Showcase Forum are tolerant of all levels of musicianship, a wide range of music, and genuinely care about the feelings of others;

(c) that the Showcase forum is a good place for people to feel good about the music they make because they can feel safe that they will be treated with respect when they post their songs;

(d) that you seem to be the kind of person who likes to take advantage of people and then laugh at them because they got taken advantage of; moreover, it also seems that you're really not concerned about how this impacts on the feelings of the people you take advantage of.

To my mind, your experiment says a great deal about the type of person you are as well as highlights the positive nature of the Showcase Forum as it presently exists.

Regards,
Noel

regarding the imbalance of favorable to critical comments:

In order for any group that isn't completely homogenous in its thinking to get along, people have to pick their battles. Most of us are not going to butt heads with anybody over their artistic choices. If I like one thing about a song and dislike another thing, I am most likely to comment on the part I liked and keep silent about the other. Why? Because I don't see this forum as a songwriting workshop. There are plenty of those online for people who want to develop skills in the school of hard knocks.

This forum is basically an advertisement for PGMusic products. When I go to a product forum and see a bunch of negative comments, it doesn't make me feel like buying the product in question.

In fairness to PGMusic who pays good money to provide this forum, I think our interaction on the forum should keep their best interest in the foreground at all times.

but that's just one man's opinion.

regarding the observation that recently many posts have not received a lot of comments:

I think this is because posting of songs jumped dramatically after Peter awarded several free copies of BIAB to people who posted last year. Time is a factor for me. Like Rharv, I frequently look through the posts to see which ones are receiving a lot of comments because those songs are usually interesting in one way or another.

Songs that interest me enough to comment have one or more of the following traits:

1) The person who posted the song played and or sang some of the tracks personally, especially if their performance was stylish and /or well done

2) I like songs that are accompanied by the writers goal, and an explanation of how the song was developed to meet that goal.

3) the song has an interesting chord progression, arrangement, instrument combination, musical style, hook or lyrical theme that I haven't already heard a million times

4) the song is particularly well mixed or mastered

5) the person achieved some effect that I could not easily duplicate by putting the same chords to the same style and jamming along

6) critique was specifically requested


I probably won't comment on songs that don't meet at least one of the traits mentioned above.

Hi all,

I've gotta chime in here with some very basic comments.

Some of you know me, or at least some of my work - some (or most) don't. Unfortunately, I am unable to be as active in these forums here as I'd like to be, but ... "real life" gets in the way more often than not.

What ever happened to "having fun" ???

I have posted some of my work from time to time and have received some very good "reviews" along with helpful hints regarding my "compositions" (I use that term lightly - LOL). Mind you - I have creations that I have not even posted. The only ones I do post are those where I (as my own worst critic) think that the song is worth posting. I don't "flood" the board with my creations.

I always try to return the favor by at least making an effort to comment on other member's songs. And when I do, I give at least the same level of feedback I've received from any given person.

I work too much, can't review/listen enough. To the original question, though: I do not see anything wrong with giving my "opinion" on a musical piece, including some technical advice (where appropriate) while still being nice about it. I mean - really - how difficult is it?

Just my couple of thought on this. Now, lets get back to having fun...

Cheers,
Mike

I don't have the time to listen to all the songs posted ,and if they do stink on ice I don't listen any further . But typing with one finger takes up as much time for me as listening so I don't bother on stinkys .

As to Prearden’s stunt described in post #65 and I can only conclude that he must have too much time on his hands.
Making bogus posts, pretending linked content is something that it isn’t…I believe I speak for many when I say that is simply not the way we do things here.

There are some good points in this thread, but let me deal first with the non-starters.
Creating 2 showcases. No, would be too complicated
Setting up some type of rating system. No. We are talking about music here, not some kind of competitive sport.

There is an unspoken – and broadly respected – rule that if you really don’t like what you hear, you don’t comment.

This may deprive the poster of some useful criticism but it does preserve his or her confidence.

Is there a mutually supportive clique? Perhaps, but there are some forum members for whom I have a lot of time and yet I have still torn some of their work apart – when I felt that I could justify such criticism.

I find that very few reviewers can be bothered to listen to material in detail and post specific comments.

The overall effect a song has on the listener is, of course, important, but some effort must be made to understand what elements have combined to create that effect.

Let me demonstrate :

“This sucks!” ‘Loved it, way to go!” are equally useless as criticism.

“I particularly like your choice of organ patch, the chord structure of the bridge section and the bass+drum break that occurs at 2:14”


and

“You might like to re-do the part of the chorus where you sing off key, the banjo and violin are fighting for the same space and the melody in the verse does not fit well with the chords”

..are specific, actionable and helpful.

Yes, I don't think the comparison with high school is inaccurate. Here is a link to the original heated thread from last year which, IMO, changed the whole tenor of this sort of discussion and of the debate and diluted the quality and usefulness of the feedback.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.p...true#Post291469

Judge for yourself the apportionment of blame here, but I wouldn't be too eager to castigate Rearden and cut him out of the herd -- that's just too too high school, isn't it? He does make some valid points. I, for one, was much less likely after reading this thread last year to comment, or to submit work, especially after the specter of plagiarism was later raised (but that's another story).

I, too, think that two forums would work nicely.

I have one pet peeve. Hiding unposted intentions or messages in a song.

I'm OK with stuff like Thank God I'm a Country Boy. Not my pint of ale but hey.

But throwing the $20 under a seat and telling the kids on the way to SSchool that look right now and golly if some 10 year old didn't get a 20. And there were 50 kids on the bus.

Same goes for your song. Put in there something about me going to you know where so repent now, that's wrong. Tell us that in advance or post some words. I'll move on.

I have lots of religion. It's a major part of my days/nights. But that's my business.

I'll be honest. I'd miss some guys, but I think it's time to start some forums for other interests. Praise & Worship. Celtic. Rock. Country. Blues. Folk. Zoroastrianism. The latter maybe not.

That's the proverbial El Toro poo poo hitting the rotating air movement device but have at it eh?

...