PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic New gig last night - first question - "Are you doing karaoke?"

New Yacht Club gig last night - first question - "Are you doing karaoke?"

We said, "Of course not."

The woman said, "Good, the last band was only doing karaoke."

I know the duo, but won't mention their name. They buy karaoke tracks and use audio loop software for their tracks. Good musicians, great sounding karaoke sounding backing tracks - but they sound like karaoke tracks - better tone to a musician's ear - but cheating to an audience member's ear.

I make my own tracks using 100% MIDI instruments (synths) and the same lady told us she is going to ask for us to come back again and again. (see http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html for how I make and use them).

We had the crowd up dancing from the time they finished dinner until they told us to stop playing.

Life is good.

Bob, The info on using the tracks was very informative. Are there any video of the gig that could be posted. I would be interested in seeing how everything flows.

Steve

Sorry, no video.

And we don't do set lists. We mellow things out a bit while eating dinner, but since this was outdoors by the pool and boat docks we played some Jimmy Buffet, Calypso and other moderate tempo and energy level songs.

When the plates started getting cleaned, and since it was an older crowd (who else can afford the yachts?) we did mostly 60s and 70s rock, Bob Seger, Dion, Elvis P., Johnny Rivers, Lloyd Price, Fats Domino, Chubby Checker, Sam the Sham, Bobby Darin, Frankie Ford, Huey Piano Smith, Neil Diamond, etc. watching how the audience reacts and deciding what to play next by their reaction.

The fact that our backing tracks do not sound like karaoke tracks is a big plus for us. The group that isn't coming back has two good musicians, plays about the same kind of material, but uses purchased karaoke tracks and loop software to build their tracks. That's what the people who are on the entertainment committee didn't like.

Sometimes what sounds best to the people 'in the biz' isn't the best thing for the audience.

Second question: Do you always use this forum for shameless advertising?

PRearden,

Don't you think you're a little new here to be calling out one of the oldest forum members?

If I recall correctly, aren't you the one who posted a "fake" song on Users Showcase and then made fun of those who commented?

I see you haven't been around here very long. Notes is pretty much the lone exception because he's done so much with creating some really excellent styles for Biab and is probably PG Music's biggest booster. He's been posting here since 2000. Peter cuts him a lot of slack and deservedly so imho.

Bob

Prearden,

Just to make sure I've got this straight. First, you decided you weren't happy with the User Showcase:

Quote:

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My point as to the happenings on the current "Showcase" is that ppl have more or less formed an online clique akin to a HS lunch room. …...I think its the Facebook phenomena: "If you 'Like' me than I'll 'Like' you. In any case, perception is that of a Mutual Admiration Society.

---

Then you created a fake song, but before posting it, you commented on several other peoples songs to “inspire” them to comment on your fake song, thereby trying to manipulate responses.

Quote:

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A while back I did an experiment. I wanted to know If I could get honest feedback from the "Showcase" posters. I took 15 minutes and created the WORST possible song I could create and posted it. I milked it in just the way I notice the clique do and posted a few positive comments on their work.

---

Then you posted the “Song”.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.p...true#Post330587

In that thread, you made it a point to sound sincere and even talked about your band. You got several friendly comments.

Your response to those comments as you mentioned in another thread:

Quote:

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Side benefit: I laughed for days. I still get a kick out of it... it's become a family joke.

---

While doing your “experiment”, you misled , manipulated and criticized the forum members and got the “side benefit” of making them your “family joke”.

…....................................

After doing all of that, can you honestly say you feel justified in quoting rule numbers and slamming Notes Norton for mentioning his products and talking about MIDI ???

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that your answer would be yes to that question.

Since PG didn't anticipate someone lying to, manipulating and using their forum members for an online “social” experiment, … they didn't make a rule against that.

FWIW, people like Notes who create products that enhance PG products and that can only be used if you have PG products aren't just doing self promotion, … they are actively trying to increase PG's business.

There have been times when I thought Notes was pushing the envelope to see what he could get away with regarding the advertising rule, but this isn't one of those times. His post did not mention his products at all, unless you count his tag line...

and lots of people in the forum (including some of the most helpful) use their tag line to advertise their CDs, Mastering service or other business endeavors.. so apparently tag lines aren't included in the rule about advertising.

Regarding Notes being in competition with PGMusic...
That's like saying Amplitube or Garritan are in competition with PGMusic...

The difference between competitors and complementors is that competitors are trying to STEAL your customers. People who make products that COMPLEMENT your product make it more usable and a better value to customers.

Since Notes' product RELIES on PGMusic, he has no incentive to undermine them. And I don't think PGmusic wants to keep making MIDI styles, so he fills a niche they aren't filling anymore.

I do, however, think there is a rebellion in the camp between the MIDI enthusiasts and the Real tracks enthusiasts, and it might be in Notes' best interest not to throw gasoline on that fire.

"I do, however, think there is a rebellion in the camp between the MIDI enthusiasts and the Real tracks enthusiasts, and it might be in Notes' best interest not to throw gasoline on that fire. HE depends on PGMusic.. THEY don't depend on him"


Well that is a very good observation Pat Marr. I would just like to add that there may be times when a user has only a limited amount of money to spend, so he/she could be faced with the dilemma of either buying the latest realtracks or after seeing one of Notes's posts is torm between buying the realtrakcs or Norton disks.
That way PGmusic loose out on its own forum.

Actually I was thinking of buying quite a few more Norton disks but after putting about 20 in the basket and reaching the grand old total of over $500-$600 even with the sales discounts I just gave up, in my opinion far too expensive compared to the great sales that PG runs

Martin

Wow! What an ugly mess I started. Sorry about that.

This is long, sorry about that, but I believe necessary.

I thought I was being helpful.

BTW, Peter Gannon has always allowed me to announce new style and fake disks plus new demo mp3s here. I appreciate that and thank him for that. I asked for permission and was granted that leeway back in the early days of this forum which was in the latter part of the 20th century.

I also enthusiastically support PG Music on this and other forums. I talk it up to musicians and have sold either directly or indirectly a couple of hundred people on BiaB. I used to re-sell them from PG Music before PG started the direct download (first on floppy disks and later CDs) and now I simply give them the PG Music website. I also mention Band-in-a-Box on all of my magazine ads, giving the product national exposure. Plus it boosts the brand name to know that other people are writing aftermarket products for it. It's a sure sign of success. PG Doesn't need that, but I'm sure it helped a great deal in the early days, and still helps to some extent now.

I love PG Music and I love BiaB. I don't use all the features of BiaB, but I really love the ones that I use, and those are the ones I tend to talk about on these forums.

The post did not carry an ad for my products, and did not dis PGs products. The Karaoke duo as far as I know was not using BiaB but I do know they purchase karaoke tracks and those audio loop disks to make their backing tracks. Thus it is in the Off Topic forum where other musical applications are supposed to be discussed.

I've heard them, they are decent musicians/singers, their tracks do sound like karaoke tracks though. An entertainment purchaser noticed that and will not hire them again. So I though a word to the wise for those people who gig in public might be helpful.

If you want to follow the advice, go ahead, if not, please ignore it. There is more than one right way to make music, and what is right for one isn't necessarily right for another.

And although I don't believe the duo in question was using BiaB nor did I state they were using BiaB, perhaps they should..........

And conversely, I do not use BiaB for every one of my backing tracks. I use it when appropriate, and sequence from scratch when it is not appropriate. Often it's a combination of BiaB and sequencing. But I always use MIDI for my voices. I tried audio loops but didn't think they were the best tool for me.

As most people know, I am a MIDI person, and I enthusiastically support MIDI in this and other forums. Other people support audio loops and Real Tracks. If we both weren't allowed to enter the discussion, there wouldn't be a discussion at all. I also promote BiaB in other forums. What's good for PG is good for me, since I ride on their proverbial coat tails.

If some people can expound on the benefits of RTs, why can't other expound on the benefits of MIDI? Just because I sell MIDI product does that disqualify me from entering the discussion? If that were the case, everybody who has used RTs for commercial benefit, whether it be song writing or gigging should also be disqualified from the discussion.

Band-in-a-Box does support MIDI, as well as RTs. There are people who tell the world how great the RTs are, and they expound on the good qualities of them. I agree and have frequently stated that I am extremely impressed with the wonderful job PG has done with the RTs. It's almost magic.

But there is more than one tool in the PG Music tool box. What's wrong with stating the benefits of one of the other tools?

Nothing I hope.

Use the right tool for the job.

If I was sending songwriting demos to Nashville or LA, I'd probably use Real Tracks as I know that the people who audition songwriting demos have a bias against 100% MIDI tracks. Like many musicians, they listen to the tone as much as the content. If that were the case, I'd probably be telling you about my successes and hopefully offering you a helping hand on that area of the biz.

If I were playing in a big band on a cruise ship (or other similar venue), I'd probably be playing along with a click track that has real musicians and possibly even vocalists on it. I've played as a duo on cruise ships and watched the 'orchestra' play along with click tracks for the main show. All the vocals except for the lead production singer were even done via lip sync by the dancers.

But since I play in a duo for Yacht Clubs, Country Clubs, Retirement Communities, and other adult venues (Florida is full of them and they pay well), I use MIDI tracks. One reason is to avoid being confused with a karaoke act, another is that they allow me to edit the tracks to my hearts content to personalize the output of BiaB and turn what I feel is a very good output into something better (hopefully my audience will agree).

As a duo performer, I am very close to the audience. They walk right up to us and talk to use between songs (and sometimes during the song, which I try to discourage). Some of them even ask how we sound like more than two pieces. I ask them about their involvement in music and give them the appropriate explanation.

I am (hopefully) middle-aged and I grew up in the pre-Internet age and when neither rock or contemporary jazz was taught in school (with the exception of Berklee). Musicians shared their tips and secrets with each other, and we all learned from our collective experience. I am the player I am today because I learned so much from other musicians. I try to help as much as I get.

If you go to my site, you will see commercial products designed to put a few dollars in my pocket and a lot of other information that is of no benefit for me to share. In fact, my competitors can read that information and help their acts compete more successfully with me. But when I was young I learned a lot from my competitors sharing information with me, and now that I'm middle aged I still learn from others, the main difference is that with years of experience, I have more to share.

If the moderators or Peter Gannon think any of my posts are out of line, I would hope they would send me a PM or an e-mail letting me know that, so that I would refrain from posting again.

So if the original post helped another duo to get gigs, it has done the purpose it was posted for. Since it obviously irritated some others, I hope this settles you down, if not, please accept my apology.

I don't like any of it. I don't like the roundabout advertising. I don't like the fact people don't like what other people like, or like people who are people who don't like certain things.

I am very UNSURE as to what is a karaoke track. Is that where you take midi and use a device and end up with a sound?

If that's the case then using software to further edit that and dick about with it, in the end is just fancier karaoke.

At the end of the day, at the other end of the pool, if the music does it for you, then cool.

I have never ever liked the karaoke thing. Drunks.

At the end of the day, someone gets up, makes a mess of a good song, and I run for the hills.

I still think the MIDI camp shall die a slow death, and I'd advise getting a computer and software and putting it in the closet, because the support is going to wane. You need that copy of xp eh?

I re-iterate, I have a Ketron, a jv1010, and 3 midi keyboards. But I just don't see it. And you get a newbie, played the stick in '71, and wants to play '60's stuff. He's going to learn terminology, cc controls, how to tweak a guitar track, fool with multiple synths because only he knows that the 4th patch on the pianos from some module available through Barky Dog headquarters in Dallas (sorry Radio Snack), makes the only piano that works while people are snacking at the Tiki Bar. Yup. That's it. Soon he's learned the steel and can argue the fine points of how to wind stings. Right-O.

The same guy who sits here and rattles on about how only MIDI sounds right, then tells you it's all about realism, and he's got that in spades. Sure. But if offered any realtrack, oh, man, that sucks. The same guy, who really thought PGmusic knew what they were doing, now tells us that that all ended the day RealTracks showed up. The same smart guys are now...what??? Put a word to it. Come on. They are:
Misguided?
Wrong?

Be kind here, you make the bed, get in. How can you tell me you can find a lick in an old midi module that you tweaked that is so good, it darn well sounds almost like, um Oliver Gannon.

Golly, mine sounds exactly like Oliver Gannon. Must be wrong though. Not ready for consumption.

'Cmon, it's time to just put the brakes on the free advertising.


Half the guys wading in here don't even have products from Notes Norton. I've got 4 fakebooks...so at least I have some sense of what is happening. Of course unless you get the styles, you will be told your songs suck because you are using pgmusic styles.

So now you have 1 company that sells only midi, who comes on here and tells us in a convoluted story that some woman said that karaoke sucks, and he certainly does NOT do that, so he's employed and the other jerks are gone. And, if he'd used realtracks that would be no good either. This is all due to superior styles, and modules, and midi, available, not at pgmusic, but only chez him. Fine.

Follow the logic here. I am having trouble finding any that makes any sense. You argue yourself right in a loop. Might as well go out and buy some.

Now I maybe ate too many Fruit Loops, and I know that rappy music is full of loops, but I have other listening options. Even being legally deaf.

The whole thing is laughable, and I'm having fun just watching the twisting in the wind. You have to see your logic is illogical. Crazy even.

I suppose it would all be ok if you bought those kar files, then got a Notes style, and followed his instructions on how to roll it, messed about, and make them midi files, THEN you make an audio file for a backing track. No karaoke there. Because kar files can be transposed when played. Your backing track does not have to because your voice is good for that key.

We all ready had a shootout at the ok corral, and for my ears there was no midi that worked. But of course, again, I'm deaf.

Where to now? Maybe Notes can buy the midi end of pgmusic in a few years, and lead ya'll to the promised midi land, where no notes clash, and rivers of honey ensue, while making you all music sheikhs, having bevy's of Camels. Smoke 'em if ya gott'em. Most programmers do. Puff Camels that is.

Come on John. This post was not free advertising, I didn't mention my own products nor the products the duo we got the job from uses. Because I sell products does that disqualify me from participation in a music discussion? If so, everybody on the board who has ever sold a song or played a gig should also be disqualified as they make money in the music industry as well.

I placed the tip as a help to other backing track gigging musicians. Perhaps I shouldn't be so helpful?

I've talked about my microphone choices, my speaker choices, my custom made saxophone, my guitar choice, my sonic maximizer, and lots of other musical subjects here. I've shared gear and performance tips and tricks with others, and I've learned a lot from the tips and tricks others have posted here. I thought that's what music forums were all about. Why is it that this is any different just because I sell MIDI styles? It's all music, isn't it? And if you prefer any other way of making music, let us know about it, perhaps I can glean a tip or two from you.

I'm a big supporter of BiaB. I loved BiaB before I started writing styles for it. In fact, I started writing styles for BiaB because I love it. I tried writing styles for other auto-accompaniment software apps (who I will not mention) but they didn't have the musicality in their output so the end product didn't turn me on. So I dropped them. BiaB is simply the best out here.

Google Karaoke tracks and you will hear a bunch of them. Recordings of songs, similar to the record, complete with background vocals. Sort of a Music-Minus-One approach. They sound great, pretty much like the recording, although a trained ear can hear insignificant differences. I guess the untrained ear can hear that they are Karaoke too - perhaps because they sound too much like the original recording - I don't know for sure.

You say you think MIDI will die a slow death. You have a right to your opinion.

Personally, I doubt MIDI will die a slow death, as it hasn't even reached it's potential yet. Virtually every modern synthesizer whether it is a digital piano, b-3 clone, jupiter 80, tyros, Oasys, Motif, or whatever has MIDI under the hood. These instruments aren't going away anytime soon.

And what about those soft synths I read about in Keyboard and EM magazines? Are they not controlled by MIDI?

And what about BiaB, isn't MIDI at the core of it's workings?

And what about Pro Tools, Sonar, Cubase and other DAWs, isn't MIDI at their core, controlling everything?

It's more likely that MIDI will become the core controller for even more inventive musical applications in the future. At least that's the way I see it.

Of course, something better may come along to replace MIDI, but I don't see that happening any time in the near future. There is still room for development in MIDI, there are unused controllers waiting for an application and also manufacturer specific controllers dedicated for whatever the synth maker wants to use them for.

Plus MIDI was a rare cooperation between competing synthesizer manufacturers. Something that they all decided would be for the good of the industry, and it turns out that it was very good for the industry. I don't see that happening again unless there becomes a great need for it.

So saying MIDI will die a slow death will say that synthesizers will also die a slow death. I don't agree and I hope you are wrong.

But to quote something I heard on the radio (and found unintentionally humorous), "It's terribly difficult to make predictions --- especially about the future."

As someone who also has a duo that uses backing tracks, I must disagree with Mr. Norton.


“Good musicians, great sounding karaoke sounding backing tracks - but they sound like karaoke tracks - better tone to a musician's ear - but cheating to an audience member's ear.”


So an audience members' ear is more discerning than that of a musician? Poppycock.

MIDI backing tracks are musically superior to well-produced sampled tacks? Balderdash.

(always wanted to use those two words)



“I make my own tracks using 100% MIDI instruments “



With all due respect, it sounds like it as well. It's MIDI.


While I understand that Mr. Norton has a great deal invested in his MIDI tracks business, I submit that that ship has sailed – quite some time ago. Most touring acts use backing tracks today, and they are done with samples, not MIDI.

It seems odd to have an obsolete format like MIDI promoted on a site that has pioneered Real Tracks.