|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
A guitar is never in tune.
The pitch of each string is determined by the tension, but plucking the string stretches it and increases the tension, so raising the pitch of the note. As the sound dies, the pitch falls, so that it's only in tune when the sound has stopped. You can watch this happen on a good electronic tuner. The same applies to pianos, so that an “ff” section will be sharper than a “pp” section.
This is why certain pitch-accurate synthesized instruments sound subtly different to the live version.
But you probably knew this anyway.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 16 |
ROG
The same is true with string instruments. When a string instrument is bowed (or plucked, for that matter), the string is stretched to the side and the tone is sharpened a bit. Higher quality (read - more expensive) instrument samples try to capture this artifact to add to the realism, but how successful they are at it is debatable.
Regards,
Ted
Last edited by tnicoson; 04/11/12 01:23 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251 |
Quote:
A guitar is never in tune....You probably knew this anyway.
Yep. (Also known as yes.) Neither is any other stringed, wind, percussion, or actual acoustic instrument of ANY type. Including pianos.
NOTHING is ever in tune except for a MIDI instrument. But of course that isn't an instrument. It's a computer generated sound based on a command and a patch to an "instrument".
It ain't "fascinating", nor even a new idea, (unless you include those who are TOTALLY ignorant about the concept of what constitutes "music").
So what's your "point"? I'm confused. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Dang Bob, lighten up. Some folks might not have been exposed to that idea and might actually find that an interesting concept.
Intonation is always the biggest thing (to me) that separates the good players from the novices. Interesting to note that you are fighting physics as well as technique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251 |
Kevin, Quote:
Dang Bob, lighten up. Some folks might not have been exposed to that idea and might actually find that an interesting concept.
Intonation is always the biggest thing (to me) that separates the good players from the novices. Interesting to note that you are fighting physics as well as technique.
LOL! I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who has NEVER thought instruments were "in tune".
Just "close".
So the concept of ANYONE EVER thinking that instruments were "in tune" except folks who didn't have a clue about music is foreign to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258 |
I'm ignorant Bob LOL LOL LOL LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926 |
Well, I was fascinated by this factoid when I first learned it Lo! these many years ago. It is why action and intonation are so important on physical instruments. With it in mind, I even played around with "stretch" tuning back when I owned a Fender Rhodes. And not only does picking or hammering send the string out of tune, so does fretting it. Damn! Just when I got it tuned, and you had to mess up everything by going and playing the thing. The timing of this post is interesting. Just a few hours earlier I saw Peter Yarrow doing a PSA (that's Public Service Announcement to you non-broadcast-oriented sorts) for colonoscopy(!). He had written a bit of doggerel and set it to his fingerpicked guitar, a small-bodied Martin which was so astonishingly in tune that I looked to make sure he was actually playing. 
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,772
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,772 |
Lots of good "out of tune" songs out there, though. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 8TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 11TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting and construction)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
Quote:
So what's your "point"? I'm confused.
When I said "you probably know this anyway" I meant you, Bob.
"The point" is that we have beginners on the forum too and some of them might not realize why the hammered acoustic guitar rhythm which they've recorded doesn't sound quite right. Hopefully, someone won't have realized that you can now, with modern technology, drop the track down a few cents and make a world of difference and then the post won't have been in vain.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
NOTHING is ever in tune except for a MIDI instrument. But of course that isn't an instrument. It's a computer generated sound based on a command and a patch to an "instrument".
Not true, ot at the least that statement needs to be qualified.
There are MIDI devices that do indeed take all of the tuning foibles of the instruments into account.
There are also MIDI devices that can easily do Equal Temperament tuning and at the touch of a button switch over to Just Intonation - as well as a few other schemes.
Most MIDI Piano samplings today are also Stretch Tuned, just like the real thing.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
...Hopefully, someone won't have realized that you can now, with modern technology, drop the track down a few cents and make a world of difference and then the post won't have been in vain.
ROG.
Doing that would result in Chorusing of the part when played alongside other instrument trracks that were not treated in this fashion, but it would not really emulate the dynamic changin of pitch that is described in the OP as being due to the very slight change in string tension due to a pluck, which would only be slightly sharper at the beginning of a held note, eventually returning to the originally tuned picth or tension. Changing the pitch of the entire track would yield a static change in the pitch relationship from track to track, p;us would not differ with different strings.
Yhe amount of tension change imparted to a string by plucking it is not very much and only happens for a short time at note initiation.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
Mac.
I take your point, but in certain circumstances it can work and be a useful technique. If the track is a fast rhythm, the pitch of the hard attack is what's heard as the note doesn't have time to drop before the re-strike. If the guitar had been tuned with light picking, the resulting rise in pitch can produce an unwanted effect. Dropping the track by 2 to 3 cents can improve it. It's most effective where the track has been copied up from short sections of hard playing.
We've used this technique with some success over the years and to the satisfaction of customers who were surprised at the difference it made.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,446
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,446 |
MIDI instruments aren't necessarily always in perfect tune, as Mac pointed out, many better synths include the inconsistencies of the instruments they are emulating.
My wind controller has a 'reed' that senses pitch, which is almost as difficult as a saxophone to keep in perfect tune (although it is easy to keep it in close tune). However, if the patches are programmed properly, changing pressure on the 'reed' not only changes the pitch, but changes the timbre of the instrument tone just like the instrument that is being emulated. This is done through physical modeling synthesis on my VL70m module.
I know from basic analysis that a guitar is not in tune and from working with a strobo-conn in school that it takes a lot of work to play a saxophone in tune. I exploit these when emulating those instruments with a synthesizer.
I recorded a guitar emulation I did with my WX5 controller and VL70m synth - recorded at a gig on an Archos "juke box" device (pseudo iPod). I posted it on the Gibson/Epiphone forum and asked the guitarists to evaluate my guitar playing. I got plenty of great comments, including one that said it sounded very Jeff Beck-ish (to me a huge compliment - as I admire his technical skills).
After a few dozen comments I came clean and told them I played it on a wind synth, and people were amazed. After the 'confession' one guitarist said that he thought there was something a little be funny about the vibrato.
Rolling Stone magazine classified Edgar Winter's solo in Frankenstein as one of the 100 greatest guitar solos in rock. And Edgar played it on an analog synth - the ones with oscillators, filters and all those twirly knobs.
You can make convincing emulations of acoustic instruments - but you have to know how to play the synth patches to do it, and each patch is different.
When doing brass sections, I often mess with the intonation of the instruments 'stretch tuning' them in a way. Or for another example, if I am playing two trumpets or saxes together, I'll attempt to get them to play together in just intonation as two might do if they are focused listening to each other. Of course, that means one of them is out of tune with the band - but that's OK.
The problem is that it is so easy to get sounds out of a synth, that way too many people play those synths without learning how to do it well. Especially with a sequencer. In the early days of MIDI on the Internet, I downloaded a few MIDI files from the usenet/newsgroup forums as it seemed like a great way to get these Steely Dan songs for my duo without the time spent sequencing them myself. What I found was robotic sounding, step-entered from the sheet music. Easy to do, but not very musical. I did some more downloading and found everything from more step entered music to music so badly played it was laughable.
It's been my experience that the easier the entry level is for an instrument, the greater the number of people who don't play it well but play for the public anyway. With those great numbers of mediocre players, it gets easy to dis the instrument.
So just because a synth patch may be perfectly in tune, that doesn't mean it has to be played that way. That's where skill, practice, musicianship and taste come into play.
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
And hence one of the biggest differences between a studio recording and a live performance. Yes, you can use those studio tricks and I have as well but it takes away from the live sound. I never thought of this way before but this is probably why most of my album collection is live stuff. The best acoustic bass players are off in their intonation all the time. Is it intentional or is it simply they're playing an imperfect instrument or they were distracted by the babe with the nice rack? Synths are great I love them, they make a live gig a lot of fun but they are too perfect sometimes. I hear 40-50 year old jazz and blues recordings on the radio all the time that were done in small venues using out of tune pianos, sloppy drums, poor guitars, one or two mics set up who knows where, the eq and mix is way off, yet the performance shines through.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,353 |
jazzmammal - you're absolutely right. Sometimes it can be the imperfections which give the music it's character. In this age of quartz crystal controlled tempos and quantised instruments, it's good to remember how well those early tracks sounded.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,106
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,106 |
I'm just happy to hear that it isn't only MY guitar that's never in tune... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,032
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,032 |
Five out of six strings are in tune on my guitar It’s just that damn B string that’s never in tune 
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,657
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,657 |
Mine too Mario! Dat dredded B string! It needs to ...... wait for it ...... "B" have
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
Five out of six strings are in tune on my guitar
It’s just that damn B string that’s never in tune
"There are no B zstrings in heaven." --Doc Watson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Video: New User Interface (GUI)
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new user interface in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®! This modern GUI redesign offers a sleek new look with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, and a smoother workflow. The brand-new side toolbar puts track selection, the MultiPicker Library, and other essential tools right at your fingertips. Plus, our upgraded Multi-View lets you layer multiple windows without overlap, giving you a highly flexible workspace. Many windows—including Tracks, Piano Roll, and more—have been redesigned for improved usability and a cleaner, more intuitive interface, and more!
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,301
Posts790,743
Members39,854
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean