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David,
I agree wholeheartedly. I am not a competitive person, to the point that I don't even like sports. I'd rather that the teams just bought another ball so they didn't have to fight over the one.
I do not prefer war to peace or we to they. I agree with everything that has been said about demonizing opponents. It is bad form and I don't like it. I have been in many discussions where people who disagreed with ME piled on to demonize me from every direction; But I am OK with what I consider to be unfair treatment because I value myself less than I value rational thinking.
I believe it is the responsibility of every thinking/caring person to watch for and refute messed up thinking before it becomes mainstream and gets out of control. You seem to think the same thing, and I honestly respect that.
It is an inconvenient fact, however, that caring and thinking people often come to different conclusions about what is messed up thinking. This happens for a variety of reasons too complicated to address here... but it doesn't need to polarize society.
Good communication diffuses polarization in the same way that pouring extremely hot water into extremely cold water results in a temperature that is less extreme than either
Conversely, when extreme thinkers stay exclusively in the same think tank, it is like boiling the water or putting it in the freezer to make it more extreme than room temperature. Only open discussion of ideas can prevent extremism.
This is why forum discussion is good and necessary even though it is uncomfortable and sometimes abrasive... combination of opinions tends to dilute the extremes.
It bothers me when people try to stifle open discussion because they are uncomfortable with it. THAT is what leads to polarization. People who stifle communication on the premise that discussion is divisive lack a basic understanding of the principles that make societies stand or fall.
It bothers me when people try to exert peer pressure and public humiliation on those who say things they don't like. That exalts emotion over rationality. Publicly mocking an idea without taking time to understand it virtually ensures that people will go underground with their thinking and become all the more extreme.
We are the guardians of civility, and how we address difficult topics lays the groundwork for the world our kids will live in. I sincerely hope that all of us can exchange ideas without taking or giving offense, or turning the topic into a rabbit trail involving insignificant side details.
I'm not your enemy David, and I don't want to be perceived that way. I see you as a fellow inhabitant of an imperfect world, and if we don't cooperate then we are doomed to compete. And as stated already, I don't like competition, I prefer cooperation.
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Baloney and Huey. All this stuff has been debated since ancient greeks. I don't do politics anymore. I lived that life far too long. Just park a marked car infront of a pub that's getting an annual inspection and some moron calls silly hall to say you were drinking on the job. Then the even more moronic Chief seizes the alleged opportunity to attack you for it. After the dust has settled land the lawyers for the union and the city hash it out they drop it. But you become guilty by inference, you were into something sketchy, I remember that thing in the papers, this guy is crooked. And so it goes.
In one case after having my training department refused something as trivial as a microwave oven 4 years running I slid the cost in with the radio gear. The elected officials and the chief missed it totally, but I got the thing.
I officially belong to nothing. I've had to quit what I was involved with, and I might go back and play horn with my wife in the fall in a brass band, but no more committees, no more President of this or that, and well, no more NOTHING. My pensions are what they are, I don't even need all the cash. Never had any all my life, but the kids are gone, the house paid for, and I buy junk I don't need all the time. Amazon should have their own truck for my neighbourhood.
Unless you intend to run for office, or are going to jump in and become active, you are sitting back, sure. But that can mean that, in my case, after joining the Junior Conservatives in 1964, and having a political presence ever since, I've tossed in the towel. Time for someone else. I have 5 years of firewood at the cabin, and am able to tell the wife how to snare hares, or winter dress a moose. I almost hope the whole thing goes to wherever in a handbasket so I can have an excuse to live in the cabin for a few years. Much better than living on the streets in a city.
You guys argue who said what and why. This should be the only politics or religion to hit the boards for the next 10 years.
Go and mess with quodlibets. (If I spelled it wright!)
John Conley
Musica est vita
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a note to those who just want me to shut up and sit down:
This topic is bigger than we are. It will never be concluded, it will always be in our face all the days of our lives. We have a few options, we aren't totally powerless.
we can talk, we can fight, or we can go underground and become more extreme in our thinking until we cease being a cohesive society and we become disjointed factions, the very epitome of WE vs THEY
I prefer open communication, as it is the only option that addresses differences in a constructive way.
I am always ready to talk, and I will never be willing to shut up, sit down or go away. This is far too important to do that. If you truly want to de-polarize and eliminate the WE-THEY mentality and combat division before it becomes rooted in mutual enmity, then disussion is the only way. Anyone who says he wants peace but not open discussion is either naive or unaware of the mechanics of peace.
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a thought on the nature of standing for something:
Many people who once planted an apple tree never lived to see any fruit from it. Nevertheless, the tree did eventually bear fruit, and those living when it fruited were blessed by it.
If we only plant seeds with the expectation of immediate benefit, we will almost certainly become impatient waiting for results and give up. Just as a large ship travelling at full speed takes time and distance to turn around, many of the seeds we plant during our time on earth will take longer than our lifetimes to fully actualize a result.
This is true of bad seed as well as good seed. All actions and words have repercussions; we do not exist in a void. Every action and word emanates like ripples in a pond, and our sphere of influence is far larger than most of us imagine. And we do tend to reap what we sow (or, somebody down the line reaps it when we're gone)
For these reasons it it is good to envision a destination before we start turning the ship around. It is necessary to know which fruit we want to leave for our kids before we plant the tree.
And then, having planted it, we should spend time watering and fertilizing it until it establishes a solid root. This is the basis of common sense IMO. There are many philosophies that disregard the tenets of cause and effect, and they are not worthy to be regarded equally with good sense value adding philosophies.
This is not to say that any philosophy is perfect, for I don't believe that. But our goal should be to make changes to an imperfect world that do less damage than good.
To reject thinking just because it is not perfect misses the point. That strategy will render anyone impotent to move in any direction, because all philosophies are flawed.
But if we communicate and work together, it is possible to get a consensus on the fruit we want to leave for posterity.
Or not. Our call.
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Well, I've managed to make things worse by respond to a private email from Bob thinking he was Pat. Hilarity did not ensue.  So this is a public apology to Bob. Sorry about that!
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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No problem David. All is well.
Regards,
Bob
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