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Called the OP on the phone last night, we talked about his eact situation.
Since his Behriner Truth speakers are powered monitors that do not have separate outputs in them, that changed the idea of using the Bazookas at all.
Rooted around and found that Pyramid is selling an Electronic Crossover that is affordable (Found that NADY does also, but decided on the Pyramid) the plan at the end of that call was to investigate the original idea of doing the crossover with his rather small Bass Guitar amp to begin with, maybe with an eye towards finding a powered subwoofer or unpowered with amp at a later date.
Found out that the Bass Amp he wants to use is one of those modern designs that has two RCA inputs on the back for amplifying Tape or other means of Backing Tracks, thus bypassing the coloration of the Instrument Preamp. With careful settings, this should work out okay and he can then hear fundamentals that happen below the 50Hz cutoff of the Truth monitors.
--Mac
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Quote:
rather small Bass Guitar amp . . .
LOL . . . puppy claims 180W RMS. Not sure I've ever turned it up past 2. I'm pretty sure it goes to 11. 
Megathanks to Mac for the expert advice and personal attention.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Most powered subwoofers for home use have the full-range-signal inputs on them - you run the full-range signal from your source into the subwoofer, then the crossover in the sub does the work of splitting off the low frequency - and the subwoofer has the outputs for the mains. That's how mine is here at home, and it's how the Polk that is 95$ works. The Behringer Truth monitors would get the signal from the Polk subwoofer, sans the lowest stuff that the subwoofer handles, and all is well.
The problem with the bazooka, is that it's not designed to work that way - it's designed to be fed a 'subwoofer' signal that only contains low frequencies. At least last time I looked into one (admittedly, about 20 years ago! - they were some of the first car-audio subs that you could pick up without having to build your own).
That's also the issue with using the bass amplifier - even with the RCA inputs on it - it should only be fed a 'sub' signal, already crossed over. Gotta go buy a crossover, probably in the 100$ range, to repurpose the Behringer bass amp for something it's not really designed to do. Why not just buy something actually designed for Ryszard's actual purpose?
Back to normal powered subwoofers: the craigslist ad for the Polk has one photo of the panel showing both the full range input, the variable crossover control, and the unamplified cross-ed over outputs that you would connect to the Behringers.
What am I missing here?
Last edited by rockstar_not; 07/27/12 06:09 AM.
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Quote:
That's also the issue with using the bass amplifier - even with the RCA inputs on it - it should only be fed a 'sub' signal, already crossed over. Gotta go buy a crossover, probably in the 100$ range, to repurpose the Behringer bass amp for something it's not really designed to do. Why not just buy something actually designed for Ryszard's actual purpose
Short answer is, money and floor space. I have two rented rooms in a house. I am extremely fortunate that one of them is the den, which was offered to me by the landlord specifically as a music room. He actually moved his own music gear out to make room for mine. (He has a house next door.)
I realize from all that has been said here and elsewhere that the bass amp is not ideal. I am not in a position to seek sonic elegance, even though I could buy the Polk PSW10 for about $70. I'm pretty sure I would have to build cables for it or buy adapters to make it usable. The Behringer amp is already there and would require only a Y-cord (which I have) to adapt the XLR cable from the crossover to the amp. My workstation has two 4U rack bays and would accommodate a crossover without taking up any more space.
In order to make any of this work seriously I would also need a realtime analyzer and calibrated mic. I just checked out the Behringer DEQ2496, which used to sell for around $200. It now retails for upwards of $350. Not gonna happen just now.
I have the perhaps grandiose goal of leveraging myself into something better by marketing my music. I have limited cash to help me accomplish this. Basically I'm hoarding it for a website, mastering, and possibly physical CDs if it makes sense to offer them. My only other asset is sweat equity. Until I can do better I'd just like to be able to hear the low notes from my electric basses and synths through my modest home studio system.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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I've resisted saying too much but feel inclined to do so.Reference monitors are mixing and imaging.To add a sub is just wrong.Studio monitors are not meant for sounding like the best stereo system on the planet. Most people make this mistake and Richard you are about to spend good money, that you don't have, on putting together a studio system that is just wrong. JMHO
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Richard needs to hear fundamentals that are below the 50Hz cutoff of his Behringer Truth speakers.
Think about (or look up if you don't know them...) the frequency of the low B string on the modern 5 or 6 string bass. The 50Hz cutoff really can't even handle the 41Hz of the old 4-string bass' lowest string.
He has examples of musics where the bass walks down and then disappears. Yet others, usually with subwoofers, can hear it. That does not mean that you *have* to have subwoofer to hear this, certain other speaker systems may do just fine. But his do not.
--Mac
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Is the price worth the return? Powered monitors going down to 30Hz or so may solve the issue and leave him with excess equipment, as compared to investing in aforementioned, ... and maybe more later. Quote:
maybe with an eye towards finding a powered subwoofer or unpowered with amp at a later date
Sometimes the original investment offsets later costs.
Not arguing; just a thought
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Quote:
Richard needs to hear fundamentals that are below the 50Hz cutoff of his Behringer Truth speakers.
Think about (or look up if you don't know them...) the frequency of the low B string on the modern 5 or 6 string bass. The 50Hz cutoff really can't even handle the 41Hz of the old 4-string bass' lowest string.
He has examples of musics where the bass walks down and then disappears. Yet others, usually with subwoofers, can hear it. That does not mean that you *have* to have subwoofer to hear this, certain other speaker systems may do just fine. But his do not.
--Mac
Mac,
I respectfully disagree. I play a 5 and my subs are 40-100 Hz.Most manufacturers REQUIRE a filter to cut anything below 40Hz to prevent over excurtion of the driver.My subs kick butt.BTW you don't hear subs now do ya. They just move air. Sorry.
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Ryszard, With a real powered sub that has a crossover built in - you don't build new y-cables. wiring looks like this: signal source L ---> subwoofer ---> behringer truth left signal source R---> subwoofer ---> behringer truth right Floorspace required: 13-1/2"W x 17-1/2"H x 15-1/2"D That's pretty darned compact. 250W that you can tune right with the built in subwoofer. The only thing you might need to do is chop off the connector of the cable and strip 1/4" length that you are sending to the behringer truth monitors so that they will work in the spring loaded terminals in the image on the listing. Is this making sense yet? No parallel path per side. Each side's signal to subwoofer crossover that is built in the subwoofer, and then the peeled off non-low frequency signal is sent to the monitor channel for that side. I disagree that monitoring systems don't have subs. Not true. Many monitoring systems have been sold over the years that use subs. You can use the sub to handle both sonic and subsonic frequencies - your choice depending on where you set the crossover frequency and the upper frequency limit of the sub. The 'Y-cable' is actually inside the powered subwoofer as the cross-over. No need to build it yourself. Did you know that the powered subs have the cross-over mids and highs available on terminals? That's where you connect the behringer truth monitors. Shoot, most commercially available powered PA systems with subs work this way as well. The monster Mackie PA that we used at our last 'portable' church had both crossed over and full range OUTPUTS on the subs that then went to the mains which handled mid-lows to highs. This is the way to handle your situation with the least fuss and expenditure and with a minimal footprint. I won't try any more to convince you any longer of that - but all you need to really do is hit that Polk Craigslist listing http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ele/3135733426.html , and look at the photo of the input/output (inputs hidden a bit by the spring loaded connectors) panel on the subwoofer to understand what is going on. 250W of subwoofer power with the amp, with a user setable variable crossover, phase switch, etc. $95 - no brainer. -Scott
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I still disagree. Richard's boxes are good down to 50Hz.To add subs and more power for below 100Hz is to add a false representation of what's really going on.
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Look, Richard's already been presented with audio where he says he cannot hear these notes in question -- and he needs to hear them.
*Funds are limited and he already has this Bass Amp.
*Time for the "run what ya brung" mentality.
*With careful tweaking and use of the gray matter between the ears, there is no reason why the use of an electronic crossover and his Bass amp, which has a pair of RCA inpouts for Tape or other Line Level signal already on it, summed to mono, could not be pressed into service.
Richard is savvy enough to realize all the implications regarding monitoring issues.
And there is no reason why such a setup would disallow being able to mix or master either.
After all, a quick check of any source material with the sub turned off or completely down would solve any of those kind of problems.
Said it before, will say it again, if you KNOW YOUR MONITORS from doing much Reference Listening to your Reference Recordings, you can turn out decent recordings using them.
Finally, this is what Richard WANTS TO DO.
That's enough fer me.
--Mac
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Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz, and then it's all feel? So if he is good to 50, he is missing some low end. Adding in budget though, that makes a difference. A crossover and separate power amps starts adding up. Boxes with crossovers sounds like the answer, though room size can dictate what you need. I have not played "compact" ever in my life, so I don't know. The last band I was in had 18" subs, Peavey 3020 combo cabinets and tweeters on top of that, and each stack was 6 feet tall. We ran our own crossover and 3 stereo power amps. (I loved running the PA in stereo. Some of my string patches had panning built in and to hear the sound pan back and forth through the fronts..... loved it.)
Again comes down to your preference and where you play. We couldn't have played 90% of our rooms with a compact system. Your application may be different. In our 30s and 40s we played in a different era when there were music clubs. Now it's restaurants that have music after dinner and won't let you set up until 8pm. (But start promptly at 9!!!) Thus the "PA on a pole" era.... Geeze, we ran 1000w in our MONITORS!
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Below is a link to the music that raised the issue. I believe the low freqs will challenge almost everyone's systems. The dominant bass line begins at 0:14 and repeats until the ultralow section begins at 1:57 and does a disappearing act (for me) at 2:06. This repeats before the end. I know the bass is still there--I asked the composer. I'm pretty sure Scott will like this. Not everyone will. It's described as "alternative ambient electronic with raw guitar." I don't know about the raw part, or guitar, for that matter. I thought it was all electronic. I kind of major in this stuff, so I really do need to hear the low end. "Crystalis" by Matthew Peterson. Created in Reason 2.5(!).
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Looking around the net I found a 20 hz test tone. My speakers, Yorkville Elites play this fine and I can hear it. My Bose is almost there, it's a stretch to hear it at all.
That said I loose my hearing at around 2700 as it cuts off. 3000 hz is never heard by me, so that's out. Actually on a piano the last 12 white notes are impossible to hear.
Some of the black notes on the piano I can't either, they seem to be the top ones.
So at 20HZ my Behringer powered mixer and speaker cabinets that are too heavy to move,work OK. The Bose, not quite. At the top end both can make tones I cannot hear.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz
Who's ears, Eddie? A healthy 16 year old can hear 20K maybe and it's all downhill every year from there. I guarantee you right now, where you sit you can't hear above 9K maybe 10K and the way you talk about high powered systems in years past you may be cut off around 6 or 7K.
I agree with both sides here. On the one hand I think it's kind of silly but Richard is a long time valued forum member and Mac is helping him. Good enough for me.
Now for my somewhat related question. I've been looking for a small powered sub to go with my EV 12" powered monitors that I use in stereo for my keyboard on smaller gigs. For larger gigs I have a pair of 15" Eons that I power with a 500W power amp and mixer. The EV's sound great but one time the bass player was late at the restaurant gig and I was asked to cover some bass and even though I kept it down I promptly blew out one of the woofers for $100. All I need is maybe 150-200W with a 10 or at the most 12" sub. In the pro audio world all there is are the big 1000W 15" and 18" thunder thumpers. EV just came out with a 700W 12" that only weighs 46 pounds and costs $600 and the new Yamaha DXR 12" is 1100W and $800. Half that capability and cost would be more than enough. Is it possible a $300 10-12" consumer sub would work for this? In my experience consumer stuff at a gig lasts maybe 10 seconds. I'm even thinking of buying a 300W plate amp from parts express, getting a 10" prebuilt sub box from Pep Boys and put a good Emminence driver in it. All the parts for that would still be the same $300. Or, are you guys are thinking what I'm thinking and just stick to pro audio? Remember all I'm talking here is some bass reinforcement for small gigs where my monitors just won't quite cut it. That 12" EV sub has a SPL rating of 126db for pete's sake.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Check out the Bazookas, Bob. Yes, I know they are meant for use in cars, but they also can make for a nice affordable, portable subwoofer for use with Band in a Box and keyboards, etc.
--Mac
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Man, I should have you on speed dial. The top Bazooka is Class D 200W 10" with variable crossover of 60-250.
Sounds perfect for what I need.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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As important as whether to go consumer or pro audio, is where you will place the sub. Unless you have a speaker delay unit, for live sound reinforcement you better be able to geographically align that sub(s) with your mains. Otherwise, you can suck the bass end right out of things due to phase cancellation of the sub against the lows generated by your mains, and/or make sure that you cross over so that you don't get the issue - I still like to geographically align PA subs with mains when I can. The nice thing about consumer and even pro-level powered subwoofers is that they nearly always have the cross-over in the sub cabinet. Run the crossed-over outlets to your mains. Run your full-range signal to the sub cabinet, dial in the cross-over frequency by ear. Bob, in your DIY kit, I didn't see you include the cost of the amp and crossover. The Bazooka still needs a crossed-over signal to it and DC power being sent to it - from what I recall, even the amped version. While I don't often disagree with Mac, I think the recommendation of the bazooka is a bit of a wild goose chase for gigging using A/C power. List of items that you would need to have on hand in addition to the Bazooka sourced for $199 at WalMart: 1. Crossover network, to make sure you don't phase cancel your existing mains with the bazooka output. The bazooka has a fixed 85 Hz upper cutoff. 1a. Cabling for the cross over. 2. DC power source to power the amp in the bazooka. Unless you run a cable out to your battery in the car, or bring along a DC power source, you need 12 Volts from somewhere. You might have a DC source that can handle the current draw, you might not. Gotta get it into the room. 3. Some way to keep the thing from rolling on the floor Regarding a consumer-grade sub for gigging: The main issue I see with using a consumer powered sub for gigging is the connectors. Most of them are going to have spring-clip type connectors - not designed for gigging. For Ryszard's use, the spring clips are no issue - he's not gigging the thing. Also, consumer powered sub cases won't be designed for knock-around transport - the bazooka case is probably better for that. Even better is to just shop for the smallest powered PA sub you can find on Craigslist. I'd shop for one of these babies used: http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1501/or something like it. On the cheap, go for Behringer. Here's one that's complete for under $500 with all you would need, crossed over XLR outs and all the power you would ever need, phase switch, etc. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1500DPRO/There is appeal to DIY, but when it costs more and less likely to solve your issue, sometimes it pays to buy the right tool for the job.
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@jazzmammal - I was typing while you wrote your response. See the list of what else you have to buy to make that combo work with your existing mains.
@Mac - sorry to disagree so blatantly, but this is coming from a guy who loves bazookas for vehicle use - bought one from Crutchfield in the late 80's and loved the boom it gave my Dodge Omni. Unless you are a hobbyist with a spare AC-DC power supply, the right crossover setup, etc - IMO it's just not an even close to ideal solution for either Ryszard nor jazzmammal's very different purposes.
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Yes, he got carried away and looked at one of the *amplified* Bazookas.
NO, not a good thing for stage work, as you would need an extremely capable 13.8VDC power supply to power the thing.
However, one of the UNamplified Bazookas, like one with the built in crossover, designed to work at speaker level, or one designed to be used with a separate amplifier and electronic crossover would work, I've done it.
--Mac
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This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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