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Seeking Lyric Critique #170948 08/22/12 08:37 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,345 Needmore, PA, USA Mick Emery OP Expert
OP Mick Emery Expert Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,345 Needmore, PA, USA	I've never written lyrics to a song. Everything I've tried my entire life wound up.."june moon croon spoon tune loon brigadoon" I may have finally gotten beyond it! (fingers crossed) I have a melody & will present it to our singer. (She's really good) She nails Whitney Houston & I picture the song as one she might have done. However, I would like some feedback from my forum friends. Please be gentle, this is my first time. Whenever You’re Next To Me My heart skips a beat Whenever you’re next to me I feel a song I am in ecstasy My skies are blue When I’m with you My love ‘Time I was lost Now I am found You give me hope And turn me around You bring me up You fill my cup Whenever you’re next to me (bridge)(no words yet...) This much is real I finally feel I am complete I feel the earth beneath my feet I am alive And truly thrive Whenever you’re next to me www.mickemery.com

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Mick Emery #170949 08/23/12 12:25 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England	Hi Mick. Looks good to me. Just a small point - I notice that the rhyme changes in the last verse. I might be inclined to consider switching lines 2 and 3 - This much is real I am complete I finally feel The earth beneath my feet I am alive And truly thrive Whenever you’re next to me I'd also look at trying to get the title into the last line of verse 1, as it is in the other verses, rather than in line 2, so it's got more chance of becoming the "hook". Hope you'll post a link to the song when it's finished. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique ROG #170950 08/23/12 02:34 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815 Kemmrich Expert
Kemmrich Expert Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815	Lyric writing, like any other noble task, takes a lot of practice and effort to do it well. 99% of us will need to write 50-100 songs before we get any feel for what can work and what doesn't work, start to get rid of cliches and more importantly learn that songs with "pictures" and "actions" are more powerful than lyrics that stick with "emotion" or "feelings". Songs need to be 3-minute mini-movies where the listener really can see what is going on (there are always exceptions). That "outliers" book said it take 10,000 hours of anything to become proficient at a profession/skill. Hmmm, that certainly was a tangent! I think your first effort here is pretty good -- but it really only matters on how it sings and how the singer likes it. I would involve the singer as a co-writer and see if she wants to add/change things. The more invested the singer is with a new/original song, the more she will put into it (I guess -- ha, ha). Kevin Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique ROG #170951 08/23/12 02:46 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia	Hey Mick, Good on you for having a go! About 6 years ago, I thought I'd try to learn how to write lyrics. It's been a long, sometimes slow, but always enjoyable road. Like everything, it's all about practice. The more one does it, the better the lyrics become. If you're interested in an easy-to-read little book that's brilliant, Have a look a Andrea Stolpe's "10 Steps to Effective Story Telling". This is one of those books that I just keep on going back to time and again. The other books that I find outstanding are all by Pat Pattison and called ... Essential Guide To Lyric Form And Structure (Berklee College) Essential Guide To Rhyming (Berklee College) Writing Better Lyrics - Second Edition Good luck with the journey. I congratulate you on a fine start Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Noel96 #170952 08/23/12 02:08 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 8,149 Sacramento, California dcuny Veteran
dcuny Veteran Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 8,149 Sacramento, California	Scanning through it, my (incredibly subjective) opinion is that the lines in bold are potentially problematic. They're "classic" rhymes, but feel out of place with the rest of the language: Quote: Once I was lost Now I am found You give me hope And turn me around You bring me up You fill my cup Whenever you’re next to me This much is real I finally feel I am complete I feel the earth beneath my feet I am alive And truly thrive Whenever you’re next to me The simplest solution that comes to mind is to simply ignore the rhyming scheme (which makes it a bit more interesting) and replace it with something that doesn't rhyme at all, or rhyme with the next line: Once I was lost With you I'm found My guide, my map You've turned my life around You take me up Where I can see Whenever you’re next to me Life finally feels So much more real I'm now complete You've swept me off my feet I've come alive And soaring free Whenever you’re next to me Of course, I've pretty much rewritten everything and clobbered the meter of the song in the process. -- David Cuny My virtual singer development blog Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing? BiaB 2025 \| Windows 11 \| Reaper \| Way too many VSTis.

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique dcuny #170953 08/23/12 03:06 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,047 80 Mi North of Sacramento CA seeker Veteran
seeker Veteran Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 4,047 80 Mi North of Sacramento CA	David, Few more Idea's. I touched up, trying to stay within bounds. Once I was lost Now I am found You give me hope You turn me around You bring me up You grace my cup Whenever you’re next to me This much is real I finally feel I am complete I find the earth beneath my feet I feel your breath sweet...or I feel your heart beat I'm now complete Whenever you’re next to me Or maybe just couple more Idea's. Good luck! Last edited by seeker; 08/23/12 03:19 PM.

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique seeker #170954 08/23/12 05:21 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815 Kemmrich Expert
Kemmrich Expert Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815	A pretty decent short video I saw today that, again, stresses the need for volume in order to develop proficiency: Ira Glass on Storytelling Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Kemmrich #170955 08/24/12 03:16 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia	Hi again, Mick, Before you read on, please let me state at the outset that I think your lyrics are a great first effort. After reading your work the other day, I looked back at my first set of lyrics and cringed. Your first effort is way superior than what I did. Since your post was seeking advice, I thought I'd use your lyrics to give you a little bit of insight into how I go about working with words these days. It may or may not be useful. I'm posting it simply on the off-chance that there is a thought or two that might spark some added creativity for you. After I re-read your work, I started playing around with Andrea Stolpe's technique of "toggling". This concept is about mixing lines of internal/philosophical detail (lines that happen within the song's character) and external detail (phrases that are outside the song's character and could be seen by an audience on the stage). For variation, I thought I'd also employ some of Pat Pattison's theory of Stability versus Instability. I came up with .... Whenever you’re next to me My heart skips a beat It's like I'm a song I'm in ecstasy Skies are blue When I’m with you My love The AXXABBX rhyme scheme really appealed to me. It's one I rarely use but I've found it can be very effective when it works. Normally, AXXA is very unstable and, to my ear, creates a feeling of wistfulness/loss. When this is followed by the solid, stable BB couplet, though, the instability of the the first four lines seems to take on an "I'm helplessly and wonderfully in love" emotional quality for me. (One of Pattison's favourite sayings is that "lyric motion creates lyric emotion".) Also, the "next to me" and "ecstasy" rhyme you cam up with is very clever. It definitely stood out to me. I thought I'd follow the same pattern in the second verse. This gave me ... You turn me around You give me hope I used to be lost Now I am found I'm like a cup And you fill me up Whenever you’re next to me Please feel free to ignore everything I've written They're just idle thoughts of someone who has found great pleasure in lyric writing. All the best, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Noel96 #170956 08/24/12 06:33 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,345 Needmore, PA, USA Mick Emery OP Expert
OP Mick Emery Expert Joined: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,345 Needmore, PA, USA	Thanks to everyone! There are some really good ideas. The next time (if there is one), I should probably post the melody. Many of the suggestions offered will/would work, some wouldn't because of the melody phrasing. All in all, some really good feedback. When/if the song ever gets done, I will definitely post it. Thanks again, Mick www.mickemery.com

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Mick Emery #170957 08/25/12 08:18 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2000 Posts: 2,217 Sacramento CA Flatfoot Veteran
Flatfoot Veteran Joined: Jun 2000 Posts: 2,217 Sacramento CA	. Hi Mick! .In my opinion, speaking as an English teacher and published author, I would say that this effort is only a little ways out of the 'moonjunecroon' category. I hesitate to say this because I would prefer some face time to look at meter, rhyme and word choice in close detail. This kind of reading can't happen in a forum like this. If I could make one suggestion - a respectful one - might I suggest you look for a poetry class at a local community college or adult school. Chances are you will get a teacher who knows her stuff and loves it. Poetry is not the same as lyric writng,but you will be able to put some polish on your skills in the domains of rhythm, rhyme and figurative language. At the very least you will get the chance to get to know some of the great masters of our wonderful language. Flatfoot sez: Call me when 'Talent-in-a-Box' is ready to ship! -- [8{> Got some tunes on You Tube: http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50 . My BiaB lesson site: http://jdwolfe0.wixsite.com/learnbiab

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Flatfoot #170958 08/27/12 05:51 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	General comment looking at the lyrics: Lots of 'I' and 'Me' in the original lyrics. Love songs are usually about the other person. Here are some ways to say similar things without the first person reference: "I feel the earth beneath my feet" --> You move the earth beneath our feet "I feel a song I am in ecstasy" ---> You are a song that brings ecstasy "You give me hope And turn me around" --> You give hope and turn life around "My skies are blue When I’m with you" --> The skies are blue, when I'm with you" (see I left one in there, but took out the unnecessary 'My'.) If you are worried about filling the line with syllables, never miss a 'Whitney' opportunity to stretch out words in a dramatic way. etc. First person references get boring rather quickly. I learned this when I was a writer for an online media review magazine, the Phantom Tollbooth. The person running the site helped me to get all of the 'I think, I hear, etc.' references out of my first review. The review is about the CD or movie or book, not about the reviewer. Same can be said when you are writing a love song. A few first person references are o.k., but make the song about the other person. It's implied that these other things about the person come from the first person perspective. No need to say it explicitly. The hit songwriting book I refer to in the other songwriting thread that's currently live is very useful for dissecting your own lyrics and helping to see what is powerful about others' lyrics. -Scott My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique rockstar_not #170959 08/27/12 07:41 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England	Quote: Lots of 'I' and 'Me' in the original lyrics. Love songs are usually about the other person. For exceptions, try "My Girl". (Otis Reading, Temptations etc.) ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique ROG #170960 08/27/12 08:15 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Quote: Quote: Lots of 'I' and 'Me' in the original lyrics. Love songs are usually about the other person. For exceptions, try "My Girl". (Otis Reading, Temptations etc.) ROG. Granted. However, IMO what really works with My Girl is not the first person references, but the great contrast that each line in the verses provides: I've got sunshine on a cloudy day. When it's cold outside, I've got the month of May. The My Girl use of first person happens in conjunction with great comparison, contrast and even irony. Otherwise it wouldn't work. The writer points out that bees are jealous, the birds song is not as beautiful as his by comparison. There are also plenty of 'we' and 'our' in love songs as well. My point to Mick was to get him to think somewhat outside the box; to use a little more poetry and creative ways of expressing the personal thoughts that will connect with listeners than outright 'I/me/my' statements. Here's a first person line that runs along with the My Girl type of contrast/comparison: (humming along with My Girl up to reader! Finger snapping also optional.) Instead of paint-by-numbers, mine is a masterpiece. Listening to your song, brings such sweet release. Mick - enjoy practicing the craft of writing lyrics. There are many great references to use as tools. My favorite free resource is the McGill Rhyming Dictionary, which includes poetry from famous authors linked to words that you are trying to rhyme. It's a download and can be very useful to help you unstick some thoughts that you might have. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique rockstar_not #170961 08/27/12 12:05 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia	Hi rockstar_not, I just wanted to say that I hear what you're saying but I don't agree with you about the "I" and "me" in songs. Writing from first person is very strong lyrically and there are heaps of incredibly successful songs out there that demonstrate that it works very well. For example, Yesterday, Misty, I Believe, Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head, Once I Had Secret Love, I Will Always Love You, etc. Essentially, there are two types of lyric that use first person. There's the first person narrative (uses I, he, she, they, etc., and no you) and there is direct address (uses I, you; and, for this reason, it's often wrongly called "second person"). When a listener hears a song with "I/me" in it, if it is a well written song that resonates with them, they more often than not hear "I/me" as referring to themselves. The below diagram shows how the different songwriting perspectives are usually heard, as experienced by the listener, on a scale of "intimacy". The diagram is based on Prof. Pat Pattison's writings, Berklee College, Boston. Regards, Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Noel96 #170962 08/27/12 01:54 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	I guess I have to retract some of my first person comments. I will say this, and I think Mick's skin is thick enough because he asked for it.... The lyrics, as typed in his post, are somewhat bland and dull - in my opinion they rely too heavily upon first person and direct statements that lack poetic flair. But, since my critique of the lyrics are the only ones being critiqued themselves by other writers in the thread, perhaps I'm the blind one here. I'm not a professional songwriter. I do have experience having my own writing, poetry and song lyrics included, critiqued, edited and improved upon by others. My suggestions come from personal experience in reading what others have pointed out in my own writing. Once one is able to see through those eyes, it's easy to see issue with others' writing that is similar. I don't disagree with Prof. Pattison's diagram, but I also don't believe it's down to simply what 'person' the narrative comes from. His diagram addresses intimacy only. The change from direct or first person narrative can open up new horizons for how to write lyrics - that's my opinion based on personal practice. It's not simply about from which perspective the narrative is written. I tried to make that clear in the previous post about the My Girl lyrics. The clear poetry in those lyrics could have switched over to direct address - it's the contrasts and the sideways way of stating the feelings that make the lyrics stand out. The lyrics could have easily been this and probably still had a hit record: "When it's cold outside, you are the month of may. You are the sunshine, on a cloudy day." The overuse of me, my and I, without clever writing supporting it, is something to look out for. That is all I have been trying to say and I still stand by that. -Scott My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique rockstar_not #170963 08/28/12 12:07 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,414 Australia	Hi Scott, Quote: I also don't believe it's down to simply what 'person' the narrative comes from. His diagram addresses intimacy only. You are absolutely correct. A song's point of view is simply one aspect of the whole lyric. To my mind, the most important aspect of a lyric is to create something that a listener can resonate with. Scott, I hope you don't mind, but your ideas inspired me and I thought I'd include a bit of my process for Mick in case it's useful for him. Mick, the following is for you if you're interested ... One way to accomplish involving the listener in a song is by using imagery based on the senses of seeing, hearing, listening, tasting, smelling, as well as images based on body movements and feelings (e.g. running, aching legs, beating heart, etc.). When a listener hears such imagery, it's easy for him or her to picture the images mentally and thus the listener becomes involved in the song. In other words, these images allow a listener to fill the lyrics with his or her own experiences. Images, by themselves, do not usually create meaning, though. To capitalize on such imagery, it's necessary to follow it with lines that add a sense of feelings, depth and meaning to the images. It's a sort of "show and then tell". Here's an example to explain what I mean ... Let's say I'm writing a lyric about a woman walking down the aisle to get married. In a mainly telling fashion, it could be something like ... She stood in the doorway Waiting for the music to start Everyone could see she was happy The organ played and, after a pause, She walked down the aisle Up ahead of her, stood the man that she fancied. Pretty lady in white Pretty lady in white Today is the day of your life Pretty lady in white As a first draft for me, a lyric like the above is more about setting a road-map for what might become a song. My next step is to play around with what I've got and see if I can add some sense-based imagery as well action words (body involvement/feelings). I found myself liking the XXAXXA rhyme scheme in the above and I also found myself liking the assonance rhyme of "happy / fancied". This got me wondering if the lyric's emotion could be enhanced by using an even less related rhyme in the A/A lines. I thought I'd try consonance rhyme and see what happens. This led to ... She was shrouded in sunshine A silhouette in the doorway It was like the church was filled with heaven Music danced all around her She floated down the aisle And on her cheeks, I could see happiness glisten Pretty lady in white Pretty lady in white Today is the day of your life Pretty lady in white Try reading the above two versions aloud, complete with chorus, and see which words work best for imagery. As part of my writing process, I also test run the lyrics with all points of view. I've written the second example above in "first person narrative" (I, she, he, etc., but no you). As an example, here's the second set of lyrics in "second person narrative" (you, he, she, etc., but no I). I also thought I'd try the present tense and make the tone more conversational by adding some contractions (e.g. "you're" instead of "you are", etc.) You're shrouded in sunshine A silhouette in the doorway It's like the church is filled with heaven Music dances around you You float down the aisle And on your cheeks, he sees happiness glisten Pretty lady in white Pretty lady in white Today is the day of your life Pretty lady in white I hope that I'm not sounding preachy writing all this, as I said at the start, it's just that I thought it might be useful to see how I go about doing things. I'm not putting the above lyrics out there as a finished product, they're simply on the road to going somewhere. Learning to write lyrics has not been easy for me and I've still got a long climb ahead of me on that lyric mountain! That being said, though, my journey to date has been one of the most satisfying experiences I've known. Hang in there and practice! All the best, Noel

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique Noel96 #170964 08/28/12 12:43 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,079 wales gibson Veteran
gibson Veteran Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,079 wales	Quote: If I could make one suggestion - a respectful one - might I suggest you look for a poetry class at a local community college or adult school. Well said flatfoot, I totally agree with that. Another way to hone your lyric writing skills, in my opinion, is to read the lyrics of popular songs in the genre in which you wish to write. (it may also help with the english in that last sentence ) The Internet makes this easier than in the 1960's and 70's when I started writing my own songs. I also read The Liverpool poets as well as the Classical poets and joined poetry groups at University and in the real world. I wanted to be the Welsh version of Bob Dylan, a sort of Bob Dylan Thomas and divided my days 3 ways, reading and "composing", working and if there was time left sleeping. Also read the papers and pick, and save, sentences, headlines etc that you think are good, write Limericks and who knows you may write such classics as Transfusion by Nervous Norvus or Macarthur Park by Jimmy Webb. Good advice from all the rest of the posters tho' so take it all in and throw out the bits you don't want. Alyn Here is Transfusion for all to enjoy! Last edited by gibson; 08/28/12 12:48 AM. My showcase songs My story

Re: Seeking Lyric Critique gibson #170965 08/29/12 11:34 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 236 Yoakum, Texas LoveGuitar Apprentice
LoveGuitar Apprentice Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 236 Yoakum, Texas	I don't want to disrupt the great input to Mick's critique but I too have written my first song. Its important to me because my wife has been asking me to write a song for her for a long time. Her birthday is coming up and I would like to complete this and record it for her. I think I have a pretty good personal story and it seemed to come together fairly nicely. I would appreciate any and all comments. The tune will be in 6/8 at around 115 BPM. Thinking kind of a Rascal Flatts feel as they have some nice songs in this time signature. Here it is: Beg you to stay I stood by the bed unbelieving As you silently gathered my clothes I didn’t know our nights together Had suddenly turned to alone, so alone I built all of my plans around you But you didn’t know who I was Right there beside you, feel all that’s inside you Had nothing to give but my love, all my love My heart turned to ashes as you drove away I stood there in silence with something to say But the look in your eyes told me words wouldn’t help me today Your fears were tearing you out of my life Leaving me now would make everything right But everything in me just wanted to beg you to stay, just stay Hours turned to days after you drove away It killed me to know you’re a phone call away I cried to the sun and the stars and the walls But nothing helped fade you away, far away My heart turned to ashes as you drove away I stood there in silence with something to say But the look in your eyes told me words wouldn’t help me today Your fears were tearing you out of my life Leaving me now would make everything right But everything in me just told me to beg you to stay, please stay Then I saw you that day from far down the hall And I knew by the look in your eyes That our love was something you could not deny And you found the courage to fly, just fly I rose from the ashes when you drove back that day I stood there in silence with no words to say But the look in your eyes told me words just weren’t needed today Our love was bringing you back to my life Coming back now would make everything right Then there in the rain I said baby I beg you to stay I rose from the ashes when you drove back that day I stood there in silence with no words to say But the look in your eyes told me words just weren’t needed today Our love was bringing you back to my life Coming back now would make everything right Then there in the rain I said baby I beg you to stay…please stay Todd

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These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
Playable RealTracks Set 5
RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)

Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:

20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)

Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!

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