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I have been fighting with vocals. That's why I haven't posted any songs with them for 4 months. I just wondered how everyone that is getting good results are doing them?. Are you trying to put them on BB, or going to another program like RB?
I am;
1. Lining out from a Satellite laptop to a Behringer 802 mixer to IN L/R.
2. Plugging mic or guitar into another channel on mixer.
a. Doing this so I can hear everything during recording
3. Panning music Left
4. Panning vocals right
5. Line out of mixer RIGHT, because I don't want the music to come back to the computer
6. Checking PG Vu input meter for clip
7. Hit record
8. Record
9. Try to mix level of audio wth Audio level (0-127) pop up menu.
10. Not happy with results. Seems like audio is fighting for space on almost any volume. It almost sounds like the music drops a few Db when the vocal comes in. It that a compression issue? I do have a "stock" group of effects (PG) already on that make the music sound good. I suppose those same ones are effecting the new vocal by default.
I don't have any more equipment right now, so I will have to make do with the above mentioned gear.
Thank You
Gene
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Almot all vocal tracks done in digital domain need an instance of compression applied to them after recording them. That would be part of your mixing routine.
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Hey Gene,
I record vocals in Sonar Home Studio although I could comfortably use Audacity or RealBand to get the same results. I have recorded vocals in BIAB (especially when I need harmony) but I always use Sonar or RealBand for mixing. Unlike you, I do not pan vocals. I always keep vocals, drums and bass (usually) dead center. I pan the instruments and spread them across the stereo field in a way to try and simulate how the performers would be standing on stage. I've found that by panning instruments, it leaves an "audio hole" in the center that vocals fills nicely.
Best regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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One good way to get a nice sound with guitar and vocal. Record guitar 2x. Pan one hard left and pan one hard right. Perhaps add chorus or reverb to one see it you like it. Put vocal in middle.
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Hey Gene,
Since I do not use BIAB or RB to record - I may be way off here - but I think you should have the audio option to record in stereo or mono. I am not sure of your setup - but it sounds like you are only sending one side back to your computer. If that is the case - maybe if you pick the option to record in mono - you would end up with a vocal track that sounds centered.
This is only a wild guess.
The Powderman
Learning something new everyday
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The problem might be inside BiaB itself. I think you answered your own question. That is, when you record in BiaB, I think RB would not give the same issue. The thing is, as you said, you got a rack with a compressor in it. Now I can not tell you for sure if it IS the issue, but it is worth to try it out. The compressor reacts on all audio going on, so the vocals you record, but also the realtracks. When your vocal is the loudest "instrument" which it often is, it will pull the instruments down with it, since the compressor acts on a certain threshold. Passing that threshold will make the compressor compress all signals with a given ratio. This means that if your vocal gets a lot of compression during the louder phrases your instruments get the same amount of compression. If you got them softer in the mix, softer than your vocals they might become too soft. Try recording your vocals and passby the stuff you got in your rack and see if it becomes a different problem. As Mac allready said, a vocal will most of the times, practically almost always get a compressor to make the voice stand out and give you the space to turn the volume up for it. The problem you might get now (with the rackitems being bypassed) is that your vocal stands out on louder phrases, but will be too soft in the softer vocalparts. Since you cannot use a compressor seperately for each instrument/vocal, the compression in BiaB is mostly a thing that has not much use. It can be used for those that make their final mix allready in BiaB, just to boost the energy of it all, but it is really not suitable as a mixdown item in fact. So you may record your vocal in RB. Import the file you created in and saved with BiaB into RB and record the singing there. I believe (I have seen the program, but I prefer to work in Protools or Cubase after my work with BiaB is done) that you can give each channelstrip there it's own FX and dynamics. You mentioned that this is all you got and I therefore assume you don't want to buy extra stuff. But another way would be to download a multitracker from the net, there are plenty freebies that you can try out. Also some very cheap ones that I have been reading about which also might be pretty good stuff for it's money. Reaper is such an example. I hope you can solve the matter this way. If it is not the compression, well feel free to come back with the rotten tomatoes and force another answer out of this forum!  Goodluck!
Last edited by abaudio; 03/25/09 08:32 PM.
I'll be back...
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I have checked the signal flow chart of your mixer, and I think, this way should work and would be a better (still not superb) way to connect things (to make the setup more clear I made the letters for connections and switches bold. All the rest is explaining why and what):
Send mic/instr thru "FX send" or from the "CD/Tape output L/R" to your computer. FX send is post fader so need to keep the channel's volume also open if you decide to use FX send. The signal comes back thru the computer, which means you cannot listen (during the recording) to the ingoing signal, but to the returning recording signal only. You can do the gainsetting of your mixer visually with the clip-LED and on your ears from the returning signal of your computer or release the CD/Tape to CTRL button, which breaks your computeroutput connection and make your input signal come via the stereobusses into your controlroom section..
To prevent the signal of the inputsignal also to go to the mainmix outputs you should beware that the CD/"Tape to ctrl" button stays pressed. (which breaks the internal connection from the stereo bus to ctrl out)
Route the computer back into the "CD/tape input L/R. The switch for "CD/tape to CTRL" pressed (recording mode), or released (input signal monitoring). The switch for "CD/Tape to mix" Should ALWAYS be released. (this prevents the signal to go back to the stereobuss and been send to the computer again, so it prevents the signal to cause feedback)
As far as I can see there will be no feedback this way, since the control out either receives the incoming channel or the CD/Tape (return from computer). The "CD/tape to CTRL" switch eliminates the signal from one of those. So pressed you hear the computersignal, released the ingoing signal.
Now you got yourself a stereo "tape"return. So that means you can keep the stereo mix in your computer during recording.
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I always put a set of good headphones up near the output and that way that does not get to my mixer. The audio track is just that, your voice or axe. You listen, sing and play along, and adjust the volume so you get a good level. I usually start with a 6 or 8 bar example and ensure that all is well. Why sing and play for 6 minutes only to find you got squat.
Then once all is well, I do the dirty deed. Works ok for me, and for lots of others, just remember, Learning Curve, it's an issue.
And even at my young age of ~60 I need to write down how the heck I did it. I often don't do much recording, so I need notes man. Good notes.
The trick to play just a bit and fiddle saves a whack of time.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Wow, that's alot of information. Thank you all for responding so quickly.
Let's simplify this whole thing so I can resolve it soon.
What I want to do:
1. Use BB created music, and add vocals and guitar.
2. Hear the music and vocals/guitar during recording.
What I have now;
1. Toshiba lap top. . One headphones out. . . One Mic in. . .
2. Behringer 802 mixer
3. SM-58 mic
4. Sennheiser HD280 pro 64ohm headphones
5. cables and adaptors, of course.
What I need to do:
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Are you saying you monitor everything on headphones then and not on speakers attached to your mixer?
And you also don't have/use RB?
Last edited by abaudio; 03/26/09 02:39 AM.
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I do have high quality headphones, supposed to be FLAT, frequency wise. I do have speakers, but not near field monitors.
I do have RB, and audacity.
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About speakers versus headphones:
Well for recording headphones are indeed the normal thing to use, since it doesnot leak the audio into your mic (assuming it is recorded in the same room as where your computer stands). Mixing down is another story, some good speakers would be more appropriate there. Headphones in mixdown should only be used for focussing on certain details, but not for the real mixing down process. They might be called flat, but in fact they don't have the same bass response as speakers do and the stereo mix is seperated by the head, something that would give the wrong image since most people listen back on speakers, just to name two disadvantages of the use of headphones in the mix. For recording they are of course perfect. If you have tried the trouble shooter I mentioned in my first response, you should be able to make your conclusion about the FXrack that you use in BB. The setup I mentioned in the second part still can be used if you have the possibility to turn off or mute the speakers. In that case your recordings should be with the monitors off and mixing down could be done through your speakers. If you feel the quality of your headphone would be better in quality, you can use those for extra reference to see if the sound is still in order, but not for creating the stereo image. If the speakers are not so good, the only thing you can do is train your ears to compensate for the limitations that the speakers have. You can only do that by listening often, compare on good speakers and/or to play a reference CD. That should be a proffesional recorded CD that you know very well and which contains comparable music style/feel that you want to be creating. By comparing you know what the shortcomings are. It is a method of trial and error though, so don't expect the mix to be right immediatelly after the first mix. Enuff said...
For your setup
Your setup I would suggest three different ones so you can chose which one would work best for you.
Usage:
setup A: Monitors or (if you can mute the speakers as mentioned above)headphone monitoring. This is the setup I mentioned in my 2nd reaction above
Setup B: Headphone monitoring during recording and mixdown
Setup C: Headphone recording, monitor mixing (almost same as A).
Setup A:
1)"FX send", Main out L/R, or the "CD/Tape output L/R" to your computer line in
2)line out on the computer to "CD/tape input L/R.
3)The switch for "CD/tape to CTRL" pressed (recording mode), or released (input signal monitoring).
4)The switch for "CD/Tape to mix" Should ALWAYS be released.
Setup B:
1)Any line out on your mixer (Main out L/R, FX out or Tape out L/R) to the line in on the computer
2)Headphone to the computer headphone in.
3)CD/Tape to CTRL button pressed (to prevent the inputsignal still going to the speakers)
4)No return from the computer to the mixer.
Setup C:
1)1)"FX send", Main out L/R, or the "CD/Tape output L/R" to your computer line in
2)line out on the computer to "CD/tape input L/R.
3)The switch for "CD/tape to CTRL" pressed (recording mode), or released (input signal monitoring).
Notes during recording:
a) speakers should be muted, disconnected or turned off
b)The headphone either put into the H/P in on the computer or on the mixer.
Notes during mixdown:
Attach/turn on/unmute speakers
4)The switch for "CD/Tape to mix" Should ALWAYS be released.
For the software
1. Using BiaB with RB
Create your music in BiaB. Save it as a regular Band in aBox file and import it into RB.
There record your voice/instrument.
2. Using Biab in combination with Audicity
Create your music in BiaB. Save all tracks with their own wav file (including the MIDI-files thru VST plug). Import all the wavfiles into Audicity. Record the other tracks like vocals or instruments.
Long story I know, but I think it covers all angles giving you the freedom to chose the right method for you. Goodluck!
Last edited by abaudio; 03/26/09 10:38 AM.
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Ok. I have to type fast because it kicks me off..
1. If I come out of the computer (BB music) to the CD/tape input of the mixer,and push cd/tape to ctrl room, and it does not go out the main out back to the computer(assuming I use MAIN out to the computer MIC in) I a fine so far. Should be able to HEAR it in fones plugged into the mixer.
2. Vocals IN ch#1 on mixer. should be able to HEAR them in fones plugged into the mixer. They will go OUT the Main out to the computerto be recorded, but the cd/tape will NOT go out the mains? Yes.
Problem solved if the above is true?
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Almost true. The CD/Tape out are connected with your main outs, in other words it is a parallel output. That is why you can use either of them. They both catch up on the same "lines" going to your control room IF and only IF your CD/Tape Button is released. Pressed it will not go to the Control room outs (headphones/speakers).
I assume we talk about situation A here, since you mention two times the headphone in the mixer. So the situations are:
Checking input levels/sound (before recording) : release the CD/tape to ctrl button -> your input goes to CTRL out and you can set levels. (the LED is the most important indicator, your ears second indicator)
After setting the MIC input level for checking the sound being recorded together with the music(or mixdown situation): Pressed CD tape to ctrl button.
And yes that part you are right, with this setup you should solve the routing problem.
The compression/weird voice versus instrument problem is another thing which I explained as well how to check and solve.
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abaudio;
I really appreciate the tech response. I am not good at this end of things if it is not a set up of normal routing. Music, vocals, guitar IN to mixer, OUT to mains or an external recorder, Mixdown. . . .
Please simplify;
If I use the "A" method, I should be able to hear the music and the vocals, but it seems like I can' just send the VOCALS back to the computer MIC IN alone? I don't want to send the music back, unless I can send it back to say RB, along with the vocals. And if I send the BB music to RB first, then try to record the vocals on RB, again I wn't be able to hear the music, while recording the vocals? Am I missing something, am I just tired? I'm trying not to be redundant, but I just am slower on this end of thinggs. I would rather just make music. But I need to be good at this stuff, I know.
EDIT:
If I import the BB music into RB or Audacity, I know I can record vocals there. But I can't hear the music and the vocals while I'm recording. Maybe there is a PREFS toggle to let me hear the vocals. That is the main issue, hearing the vocals while I'm laying them down.
Last edited by Luvs3rds; 03/26/09 07:53 PM.
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