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Pat - I may be interested in taking some lessons from you over the Internet, if you could show me what you did. You've piqued my curiosity. Shoot me an email at joevidetto@hotmail.com to discuss further - hek, I may have just inspired you to start a PGMusic Training business : )
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Quote:
I would pay to see Pat do this with some of the more sophisticated songs from my favorite artists - like Queen, David Bowie, Steely Dan, Mark Knopfler...yada yada. (not sure how much I would pay, but I would pay : )
Quote:
maybe I'm just one of those people who is too dumb to know what's impossible, so I went and did it. Repeatedly.
Pat, not trying to get on you or anything but do you know who those groups are? You're going to use Biab to do Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody? Or Josie by Steely Dan? Not just basic rhythm tracks but all the little bits that make it sound like the record.
I'm not saying it's literally impossible, just extremely difficult and why bother? Biab has no style for those polychords in Josie and what about that intro? Or Queens piano part in Rhapsody? That's what a true DAW is for. And even then if you really want Josie that badly spend five bucks and buy a killer live minus one studio recording of it. You would spend hours and hours or days or weeks trying to create that from scratch and if you don't play all the instruments, good luck.
Biab is not designed for creating covers in the exact style of any given recording. The hooks and song specific stuff can be put into Biab tracks but you have to enter them yourself either by playing them or importing a midi track like a certain bass line. You can take a good midi file that has those parts and copy them to the appropriate track inside Biab and then freeze the track so it doesn't get wiped out as soon as you hit "generate". Biab has no ability to actually create the guitar intro to Satisfaction or any other famous hook. You can however record it yourself onto the melody or soloist track or there's other techniques I won't go into here. Basically, though it's not worth the effort.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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One can load any standard MIDI file in Band in a Box using the Open MIDIfile command, then create a custom style file from that MIDI file using the Style Wizard.
This is a great way to get both autoaccompaniment AND those necessary cover song hooks while staying inside Band in a Box.
See the bb Help, under Style Wizard and Style Wizard More for details on how to do this.
--Mac
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I will end my participation in the thread with three parting comments:
1) I already revealed exactly how to add 90% of the signature intros, solos, endings etc without having to play multiple instruments. Subsequent replies suggest that the writer didn't read what I wrote.
2) the statements "I don't know how" and "it's not possible" do not mean the same thing
3) to BobC regarding the statement that he would be incensed if somebody represented BIAB/RB as being capable of making backing tracks: A recurring theme in your observations about BIAB is that you see it as a totally automatic no-talent-needed song generator. You even compared it in the past to a graphics program that generates pictures, and expressed amazement that people claim credit for songs they created with BIAB. BIAB is a toolbox full of music making tools. Any toolbox is limited by the resourcefulness of the person who uses the tools.
I've heard harmonica players performing complex classical pieces... But *I* can't do that! Should I feel incensed if a music store salesman suggests that the harmonica is capable of that?
I speak to you as an accomplished and award winning guitar player: You can probably play passages that I can't play. Should I feel incensed if somebody suggests that the guitar is capable of things I can't currently do with it?
The answer is "NO" on all counts. The amount of investment in practice changes what is possible.
Now, I will agree that you can't plug in a bunch of chords, hit PLAY and have a note for note backing track come out the other end. If that's how you use PGMusic products, then that explains the direction this conversation has taken. That's NOT how *I* use the products. I can only speak for my results. But I stand fast in my original assertion that for me, the best and fastest way to get a backing track that sounds like the original is by using Real Band. (for this particular task, I don't use BIAB)
Merry Christmas!
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"Typically signature intros, solos and endings occur in parts of the song where there is no singing. Just raise the volume on the reference track and lower the volume on the rhythm tracks, and bingo."
Yes - here is the part that Pat is referring to that we didn't read carefully enough. My feeling was that in the parts where there are no singing, you're also adding parts of the original recording, and for these small snapshots in time, the exact replica of the original recording will blow away the rest of what you've created.
But - Patt sounds like he knows what he's doing, so I'm going to give it a try. I wish he could share one that he's done : )
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Quote:
"Typically signature intros, solos and endings occur in parts of the song where there is no singing. Just raise the volume on the reference track and lower the volume on the rhythm tracks, and bingo."
Yes - here is the part that Pat is referring to that we didn't read carefully enough. My feeling was that in the parts where there are no singing, you're also adding parts of the original recording, and for these small snapshots in time, the exact replica of the original recording will blow away the rest of what you've created.
But - Patt sounds like he knows what he's doing, so I'm going to give it a try. I wish he could share one that he's done : )
The end result is much like a really good vocal redux... Except with REDUX, there is usually artifact evidence that vocals were removed. Using this approach, you just replace the whole part where there is singing, so The only audio artifact is where you bring the original forward... you just need to experiment non-destructively until it sounds OK
It has been my experience that for dynamics, most songs have a very SIMPLE backing while there is singing. That makes it easier to duplicate with the plain vanilla backing provided by real tracks. All the fancy stuff happens when there is no singing.
So, The only time YOUR part is in the forefront is when you are singing. The human mind tends to focus on one thing at a time. When there's no singing, they hear the original, and are pleased with what they hear. When you start singing, they hear your vocals, and the backing tracks you created become almost subliminal.
If you:
1) do a reasonable job with the ACW to get the project's tempo in synch with the original song, and
2) then MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE that the chords are correct before proceeding (even if you have to edit them.. this is key, probably the most important part of the procedure)
3) And do a reasonable job of matching real tracks to the instruments in the original song...
it won't matter if you get your part perfect. Just as a coat of spackle and paint hides imperfections in a painted surface, your vocals will overshadow the backing tracks. I've never heard a cover band do a perfect recreation of a song... but they get close, and it works.
This is not to say that all songs are equally easy to duplicate. The artists you mentioned will be more of a challenge than a 3 chord country song. But the complexity of the stuff you retain will immediately put your version a cut above the local band that's trying to PLAY the parts.
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Ahhhhh....now I see where you're coming from. See how you got everybody going ? I'm looking forward to giving this a try. Thanks for sharing the details and reasoning behind your suggestion.
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There is a midi player alternative called WeMusic!
You can try to download it at:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wemusic!/id997247269
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First, I understand both sides of what is being said. I know when I...I'm not sure you can call it...sing karaoke, I typically listen for really specific parts in the song. Sometimes it's not the major hooks. It's some little background part that is in the original. If it's not there, or simply different in the karaoke version, it throws me. And THAT is the reason I probably don't sound that great at karaoke!...I just figured that out now  Kidding of course. Now, in Pat's defense, if you get up on stage to perform with a band, the song typically won't sound that close to the original either! There are many parts that may be missing. You can get the general sound of the song, and add in some of the hooks and people know the song and could sing just fine to it. Along these same lines, some of the songs mentioned would not just be hard/impossible in just BIAB. They are simply more difficult songs for most bands to do! Some bands would NEVER be able to do bohemian rhapsody! Of course there are some who can, but they had to work at it...not just that song, but learning everything before even taking on a song like that. And they typically aren't doing an open mic type thing at that point I think Pat's point is valid in that the original question was asking for some solutions. Pats does work. Maybe not for every single song out there, but I don't think that was the question that was asked...and I don't think anyone has given an answer for every song out there either! Lighten up on the guy. Rather than point out all the places it wouldn't work, or would be hard, why not look for all the times it WOULD work?! Is that not what the original post was about? As far as having an axe to grind about people's expectations...that sounds like a new thread. Or rather than jump all over a suggestion, you could simple say "yes that would work in some cases, but it's almost impossible for the program pull off some harder songs. For those you may want to..." Now to help the original poster... I very much agree that karaoke-version.com has some great tracks! In the passed they seemed better, but are still pretty great. The ability to do custom mixes is impressive! A great midi source I like is midi-hits.com. The quality of the playing is pretty great typically. I have heard people buy great performances and run them from a crap midi source and they sounded terrible. That, of course, is not the fault of midi-hits. Always remember that! I hope this helps! It's a great question.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 08/22/15 02:44 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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It's my experience that a BIAB created cover will almost always out perform any of the local Myrtle Beach live bands if they attempt to play a request from out of their practiced playlist.
I use a similar workflow of Pat to create covers. The main difference is is the source material I use. I scour YouTube and Facebook for isolated tracks. Finding quality source material can take longer than the BIAB/RB work so when I come across something I like, I download to a folder and save it for a future project. Sometimes, I do a song that I normally would not do but the track is so good that it is worth my time to use it. The best sources are isolated tracks by original artists normally taken from box sets such as the Beach Boys Pet Sounds. Vocals, instrumentals, BGV's and Harmonies are all available.
Good tutorials are the next best. Most play through the song close to the original tempo, recreate the song accurately and also in the original key. Even if they differ from the original, they do so because the key is normally better suited for the average player. The chord progression and strumming patterns usually closely follow the original recording. Signature licks are accurate and at some point in the video, played at the proper tempo. Again, isolated and usable as a 'scrap' in RB.
A fun and excellent example of a great tutorial that can be used to get 'scraps' to do a very accurate cover: Former Eagles guitarist Don Felder does a complete tutorial of all his licks, leads and fills of "Hotel California" just playing the guitar with no other instrumentation in a YouTube Video. A helpful thing for me is he transposes the song to Am, a better key for my voice. This is essentially a RealTrack from Don Felder to me and mixing his performance into an accurate BIAB backing track and using midi produces an exceptional cover in Am.
Acoustic covers can also provide gems to work with. Here, the workflow is the same as Pat's. The benefit is the artist arrangement may differ from the original by removing other instrumental parts in order to showcase the artist prowess in executing a difficult signature lick and providing a more isolated track than the original. I'm not being critical of the artist here, just mentioning that covers sometimes vary an arrangement enough for me to get clean 'scraps' to use in my cover.
Last edited by c_fogle; 08/22/15 03:49 AM.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Glad to see this thread resurrected, as the topic is of interest to many who use BIAB, but it never really shows up in tutorials due to the fact that we're talking about songs that are covered by copyright.
Charlie, I like your approach. I'm stealin' it! ;-)
I think of my results as "FRANKENsongs" because I collect a bunch of stuff and combine it all together to get what I want. This can include the original song, MIDI files, scavenged karaoke tracks, my own playing, my own MIDI editing, and now based on Charlie's input... individual tracks scavenged from the web.
The biggest obstacle when you try to merge tracks from different sources: there are slight differences in timing that make it impossible to use the tracks together without editing one of them.
RealBand has a feature on the right-click track menu called something like "TIME SHIFT AND PITCH CORRECT". You can use this to fit snippets to a new time. I haven't had good luck using it to fit a whole track unless both tracks were recorded to a metronome (often not the case). But I've had excellent luck when I break up the track and fit small pieces at a time. Assuming you already used RealTracks to create a cohesive rhythm section, moving signature licks to the right place is easy.
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I guess what I need to do is create a tutorial based on a song that isn't copyright protected. That way we can post the tutorial here without having attorneys sending cease and desist letters to PGMusic.
If somebody from the forum provides me with an original (no copyright) song, complete with signature licks, I'll create a video showing how to reproduce it.
And don't send one that was made with real tracks.. that would be too easy. Maybe you have an original song that was recorded by your band 30 years ago, and all the signature licks were played by one or more of the band members.
PM me for an email address to send the file.
(This won't be a fast turnaround, as I have a lot of irons in the fire right now....)
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Great thread to bring up again - this is asked here constantly. Looking forward to your tutorial Pat.
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The vid is a great idea Pat. I, as well as many others, seem to have a lot of interest in your approach. My "process" isn't well defined and always seems to be in a state of flux and anxiety.
Jeff
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“You're going to use Biab to do Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody?” Granted, while BIAB isn't the best tool for a song like “Rhapsody”, Pat has figured out a method of doing it in RB (which is very interesting). I'd like to try it, but it's probably above my pay grade.  I do disagree that punters want to hear an exact replica of the original. They already have karaoke for that. BIAB is perfect for making your own arrangement of a song, while keeping very close to the original. If you've got the backbeat and can play the signatures live, people will recognize it. We're doing a lot of Classic Country these days, as we slide down the ladder of success  , and BIAB absolutely NAILS this stuff, from Bob Wills to Waylon to Merle. In 40 years, we've never had a request for “Bohemian Rhapsody”. Regards, Bob
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We're doing a lot of Classic Country these days, as we slide down the ladder of success laugh , and BIAB absolutely NAILS this stuff, from Bob Wills to Waylon to Merle.
In 40 years, we've never had a request for “Bohemian Rhapsody”. grin This made me laugh, it made me cry, and then that "yup!" moment.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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...as we slide down the ladder of success This made me laugh, it made me cry, and then that "yup!" moment. For some of us there was never more than a one step ladder on the way to the top, so at least there ain't too far to fall.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Getting it "to sound like the record" is dependent on your market and audience. It also depends on the song. WE do some "like the record" some "similar to the record" and some "completely unlike the record". We did a couple of weddings where the brides asked for a couple of first dance songs that we would probably never-ever play again, so I bought them from a big karaoke site figuring I'd save some time. Well, they were well done, but there is a difference between recording for the radio and live performance. The difference is in the balance and energy. This is especially noticeable at low to moderate volume levels. The Karaoke tracks were done at recording levels. The snare was neither loud nor crisp enough, the bass was too mushy, and a few other things. I ended up doing the songs from scratch with the help of BiaB on MIDI instruments so I could control everything. I think I mentioned this before, but this is how I write tracks for my duo: http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.htmlInsights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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“You're going to use Biab to do Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody?” Granted, while BIAB isn't the best tool for a song like “Rhapsody”, Pat has figured out a method of doing it in RB (which is very interesting). I'd like to try it, but it's probably above my pay grade. for the sake of clarity, I never said I could duplicate extremely complex songs. Somebody else took a reasonable concept to an absurd degree in order to make their point. Solo acts that use backing tracks can be credible if they do songs that a solo act without backing tracks might do. When they venture into the realm of music that centers around virtuoso performers, then it begins to look ridiculous (in my opinion) But, given a context in which a solo performer is making tracks of reasonably simple songs that have the usual hooks and signature solos in all the usual places, I'm just saying there are ways to preserve any part of the original song that doesn't include vocals. In most of the songs I play, all the signature stuff happens when there's no singing.
I do disagree that punters want to hear an exact replica of the original. They already have karaoke for that. BIAB is perfect for making your own arrangement of a song, while keeping very close to the original. If you've got the backbeat and can play the signatures live, people will recognize it. I agree. Like Bob, I play all the signature stuff myself. The discussion is about whether or not it's POSSIBLE to snag it if you want it. (again, for clarity... I'm not talking about reproducing it in BIAB... I'm talking about using the tools in BIAB & RB to merge parts from the studio recording into your backing track.) We're doing a lot of Classic Country these days, and BIAB absolutely NAILS this stuff, from Bob Wills to Waylon to Merle. In 40 years, we've never had a request for “Bohemian Rhapsody”. Exactly my point!
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Not Karaoke but a nice site for midi files: ++ Midi Spot ++
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Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
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