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Hi all,
I'm the type that buys equipment, and doesn't begin to use it until several years later, when it's about to become obsolete. Then I work toward buying the new equipment, and the same cycle begins again. Someone has to help the music gear vendors. I also spend more time studying the equipment manuals and features than I do actually playing (that's why my musical progress isn't faster - any of you distracted by the technology to the detriment of your musical progress ?)
All that said - I'm finally learning to hook up and use my Roland GI-20. Funny enough, I do find the delay, no matter how small, annoying. I could see it throwing me off when playing with a live band. And I do find that the thinking/composing/jamming using synth sounds is extremely different. The easiest sounds for me to use are those where the attack is fast, like on the guitar, and the sustain of sounds are relatively short, like the guitar.
One think I thought the guitar synth would do for me is allow me to emulate some of the instruments I really love but don't play - like the fiddle (love double stops, bow tricks, and volume swells in bluegrass), and I love the sound of the pedal steel in Yes and Neil Young. Alas - after playing around a little - I don't think I'll ever get satisfaction in trying to emulate and play these instruments on my guitar synth.
Please comment on your experiences with the above, and tell me:
Guitar Synth players - what sounds do you use, and how do you use your guitar synth ?
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I have an Ibanez Strat copy equipped with a Roland GK-3 pickup which I installed a few years ago for use with my Roland VG-88 emulator system. I love this system and rarely use the actual sounds of the guitar any more, preferring the sounds of the Roland. But it isn't a true synth. I bought a Roland GI-10 a few months back, and like you haven't begun to use it for the same reasons you mention. The hope is to eventually use it with my Roland JV-1010 synth module and with Propellerhead Reason.
I also have a pre-MIDI Korg MS-20 monophonic analog synth with built-in pitch-to-voltage converter. I have used it with guitar, bass, and mic inputs. There are few patches which really sound good through a guitar that is played like a guitar. I have found it best to simply think of the guitar as a controller and 'play to the patch.' When I'm playing a big square wave sound I tend to emulate Keith Emerson more than I do John McLaughlin (or at least I try). Maybe I'm limited by experience and prejudice. One possible exception is that I find it easier to play a bass like a bass, usually with a massive sawtooth sound, by itself or doubled with the bass sound.
If you want to explore the limits of what can be done with a guitar connected to s synth, listen to Alan Holdsworth's Atavachron. The controller isn't actually a guitar, yet he does more with it to preserve the gestures normally used with guitar than anyone else I know of. Search youtube for users of the new "You Rock" MIDI guitar controller, too. Again, it isn't actually a guitar, but comes very close, and we're starting to hear some real sonic innovation from new users.
HTH,
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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I have been using guitar synths since the 90's. My first was a Casio PG380 guitar. Later on I purchased the Fender Strat Roland ready guitar which I still have and use today. I also have a Roland GK-3 pickup mounted on a acoustic guitar. I previously owned the Roland GR-20 but I sold it on Ebay and upgraded to the Roland GR-55.
I have found there is always going to be some latency with pitch to midi conversion. This has been improved over the years with faster electronics. It is very important to have your midi pickup adjusted correctly for your style of playing. Also like you have found out different synth patches track faster than others. I mostly use strings but I do like the piano.
To sum it up, you have to play a guitar synth much more accurate than a guitar because of false notes triggering. The guitar setup adjustments are critical. Certain patches respond faster and track better than others. In general Bass note frequency's are slower to convert than higher frequency's. This is just the nature of the beast.
Merry Christmas
Brian
BIAB 2026 Ultrapack- Fender Studio Pro 8, Windows 11, Mac Mini M4 with Logic Pro 11, Melodyne Studio, Luna Pro
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Hi Joe V, There are *many* ways to use your guitar synth. Not only can you use whatever sounds come inside the synth you have, but it can also be used as a MIDI path into your computer, firing DXi and VSTi software patches. Guitar players who aren't all that keyboard savvy should take full advantage of having the MIDI pickup/synth setup, for here is a way to emulate keyboards without having to do like yours truly and learn to play both instruments. **Try playing in a single-note blues organ solo. The blues patterns on the guitar, without the bends, mind you, firing a good sounding Hammond organ patch, can be used to turn in a very nice and realistic sounding organ solo in the right situation. And its easy. **PADS -- "Pads" is the term we use to describe tracks where the instrument used has long sustain capabilities. String tracks, certain synthesizer sounds, organ, well, any sound that is not percussive in nature. A set of tracks that contains all "choppy" sounds, such as real guitars chording and bass plucking, can be smoothed over by adding, say, a String or Organ sustained held notes track. Again, the guitar player can emulate things that keyboard players do without having to become a keyboardist. Two and three note chords rather than full grand barres typically work better here. Or recording single notes one track at a time, stacking the harmony desired when the two to several tracks play back at once. **Pianos. Whether acoustic grand piano or Rhodes pianos, Wurlitzer pianos, let's include also Clavinet, Harpsichord or even Vibes, use your guitar to play in a solo or accompaniment track that would normally call for a piano playing session player. Nice. **Guitar Teaching -- Being able to quickly record a MIDI guitar to the computer, using BB or PT, RB or any number of available recording softwares, is a dynamite way to come up with customized study materials for students. With Band in a Box, you can generate TAB under scored notes ready to print out. The MIDI synth saves a LOT of time that those without one have to spend in single-note entry of such, plus the fact that the MIDI synth already sends the data as to which string you are playing at the time. No confusing that C note on the 5th fret G string for the C on the first fret of the B string, for example. Not only can you get the printed sheet for the student (or even your own practice sessions) you can also have the audio soundfile of it as an example, rather easily. Here is a youtube of a video that Skunk Baxter made in the 90s as regards use of the Guitar synth in studio work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8pr7P-1jsI (The original underscore for the hit TV series, "Law and Order" -- the Rhodes piano part was played in using a Guitar Synth... -- And the guy made double the money because of it!) --Mac
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Quote:
I also spend more time studying the equipment manuals and features than I do actually playing (that's why my musical progress isn't faster - any of you distracted by the technology to the detriment of your musical progress ?)
Joe, you're singing my song! I've long complained about the "left brain-right brain" phenomenon inherent to electronic music. It seems that the artistic side of music is very right-brained, but the technology stuff is very left-brained. I have always found that by the time I immerse myself in the technology sufficiently to be prepared for electronic music making, I'm so far removed from my right brain sensibilities that I can't get in the groove.
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**When confronted with that new piece of gear, or software, or whatever, don't try to understand every single thing it can do all at once. Break it up into smaller things and work immediately with those smaller things.
Try to get the feel and the gist of some feature, sound, etc. by viewing the new thing as doing *only* that and nothing else for a few days.
"Familiarity breeds contempt."
Get familiar with *one thing* that it does at a time.
Plenty of time to get to the next thing and lots to gain from having mastered one thing.
--Mac
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A former girlfriend had another approach to technology--just start pushing buttons. It worked for her, at least with consumer electronics such as a GPS unit we owned. Too bad our gear can't be similarly intuitive. Or can it? *strokes imaginary beard*
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
A former girlfriend had another approach to technology--just start pushing buttons. It worked for her, at least with consumer electronics such as a GPS unit we owned. Too bad our gear can't be similarly intuitive. Or can it? *strokes imaginary beard*
this is one of the reasons I act like such a PGMusic evangelist here on the forum. Whereas for years I was totally dead in the water trying to accomplish something/anything with other software, PG products made sense to me for the first time. I think it's because the software is written by musicians who are also programmers, (as opposed to being written by programmers who just work for a music software company)
edit:
in other words, using this software doesn't force me all the way out of creative mode, whereas other software did.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 12/26/12 01:05 PM.
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Joe V,
I had a Roland VG-88 but never took to it and its gone to ebay a while ago. Like you I have a lot of gear and study the manuals until I an use it all, but inspiration with MIDI instruments is short for me, I find something is lost. For me its the way MIDI notes come in discreet little packages, it just does not feel real.
Until BIAB came up with Real Tracks - they are such a gas. Now with BIAB I have had the product for years and hardly ever go under the hood.
IMO That's how a music machine should be!
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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I kept my Roland VG8 around, just for the simulated L5 jazzbox that lives in it, only because of the looks on the faces of the old farts in bigbands when I show up to sub guitar on a gig -- and pull out a Strat with a Whammy Bar and a MIDI pickup on it.
Most of 'em still think that there's this one guy who can make one o' them thar Rock 'n Roll slabs sound like a real jazz guitar.
And that alone was worth the price of admission...
--Mac
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One way to reduce the midi conversion delay is to use a nashville string set,
but you lose standard tuning and the converter needs to be able to respond
to the higher pitches (don't know if they all do, but some do at least).
An even more drastic approach is to use all high E strings. The tuning back
to standard guitar pitch is done in the sound module.
I had a Roland VG88 and VG99 for a while for some fooling around with guitar.
These are not midi sound devices, although the VG99 did do the conversion to
midi and provided the midi signal output on the back.
So they don't offer any of the typical midi triggered sounds like piano. However,
the sounds they do offer are free of the delays inherent in pitch to midi conversion.
If you have a use for custom guitar sounds and certain synth sounds, these play
very much like normal guitar notes. Bends and slides for example work without
triggering problems. It's like the notes are passed straight through except with a
different timbre.
But they are expensive.
I also spend way too much time changing settings and reading manuals,
at least for my non-bass playing music. With bass at least it's just
the upright, or electric bass, cable, bass amp.
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Quote:
Joe V,
...but inspiration with MIDI instruments is short for me, I find something is lost. For me its the way MIDI notes come in discreet little packages, it just does not feel real.
Until BIAB came up with Real Tracks - they are such a gas. Now with BIAB I have had the product for years and hardly ever go under the hood.
IMO That's how a music machine should be!
I am feeling the same about 'something is lost', and I believe it's due to 2 things 1.) the delay in response time, and 2.) the limitation of Midi Guitar synths to EASILY allow the guitar player to phrase and articulate similarly to the emulated instrument. From what I've seen, the only and best way around this is for the manufacturers to sample the cool articulations, but then, you have a SINGLE sampled articulation and you're not feeling like you're in control of the phrasing, which is what you want - thus it FEELS like you're playing back little portions of recordings and stringing them together, something a computer can do, for example - RealTracks. Although we love the accompaniment and that RealTracks provides, and it is the "next best thing" to having a real musician of that caliber to work with you, it is limited in the sense of the phrasing variations it allows. It's easy (not for me - for PG, that is) to rearrange amazing parts, but to simulate changes in the phrasing for variation and interest purposes - that's still to come (maybe in our lifetime ? maybe PG is working on that right now ? - I doubt it, it's too complicated, I think).
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Quote:
Although we love the accompaniment and that RealTracks provides, and it is the "next best thing" to having a real musician of that caliber to work with you, it is limited in the sense of the phrasing variations it allows.
if we're comparing the limitations of phrasing, and BIAB comes out being LESS variable than a real musician, then your experience with the creative genius of bandmates has been a lot better than mine.
My opinion is exactly opposite yours on this topic. I think that in a band of human musicians one of the biggest limitations is variability of the musicians' repertoire. Eddie commented not long ago that he saw Kenny G in concert, and ten minutes into the show he had already played the same riff 3 times. And he's a pro! Joe Local usually knows less.
In contrast, BIAB has MULTIPLE possibilities for each real track musician,and multiple real track musicians for each instrument. And multiple instruments available for every song. And multiple styles available for every project.
Quadruple everything I said if you're comparing the collective variable possibilities of BIAB to the variability YOU ALONE, (with no other musicians to add new ideas) could possibly bring to all the projects you'll ever produce from now till the end of your life.
And for the rest of your life, there will be 2 new versions of BIAB per year, each having so many new variants on a theme that you will never exhaust the new possibilities before the next version comes out
Given your current musical productivity, how many projects do you expect to finish in the rest of your life? There are already more possibilities available than you could exhaust in that number of projects. And more are on the way.
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Uh-oh. Mentions of Kenny G in the same breath as jazz improvisation.
Slugfest in three, two, one...
teehee
--Mac
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Quote:
Quote:
Although we love the accompaniment and that RealTracks provides, and it is the "next best thing" to having a real musician of that caliber to work with you, it is limited in the sense of the phrasing variations it allows.
if we're comparing the limitations of phrasing, and BIAB comes out being LESS variable than a real musician, then your experience with the creative genius of bandmates has been a lot better than mine.
My opinion is exactly opposite yours on this topic. I think that in a band of human musicians one of the biggest limitations is variability of the musicians' repertoire. Eddie commented not long ago that he saw Kenny G in concert, and ten minutes into the show he had already played the same riff 3 times. And he's a pro! Joe Local usually knows less.
I think we are talking apples and oranges here.
If you take one bass RT, one lead guitar RT, one organ RT, one rhythm guitar RT and one drum Rt and pit them against the same band format the band will be less limited.
If you include all of BiaB then of course BiaB will be less limited.
Unfortunately for us and fortunately for PGMusic we can’t afford to have all of those pro musicians sitting in our home just waiting to play 
Running for cover 
My wife had her driving test today.
She got 8 out of 10.
The other 2 jumped out of the way!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I think that some of you have misinterpreted what I meant, or maybe I was unclear. I was referring to the phrasing of a SINGLE note - not all the variations of notes in terms of what follows what. Each single note played or sustained has a unique 'stamp' of that player in it, in terms of attack, decay, sustain, harmonic, bend, vibrato. Given the same sequence of notes/chords, and for a single quarter note in that lick, a live musician (at least I believe) can change the feel and expression of that quarter note by changing the parameters I spoke of. As commented by you Pat - the variations in melody, chords selected, note sequence - of course the BB/RB can vary and permute the combinations much better.
For instance - take a guy (you may love or hate his voice, but try to follow my thinking) like Neil Young. His genius is in his phrasing and expression on a "per note" basis(both guitar and vocals) - that's why I can listen to his songs over and over even when hearing more or less the same sequence of notes and chords.
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Seriously, folks, there is one very large difference between using RealTracks and other methods of autoaccompaniment such as Acid Loops, etc. and that is the fact that real live musicians can hear what is going on at the time and respond accordingly. Hooks, Themes, Call and Response stuff, Fills that echo your particular Melody line, Solos that invoke themes, hooks, melody lines and likely a few other things I've missed.
One still can work up some very nice sounding stuff though, despite those kinds of limitations.
But I don't think any of us would have those classic hooks in our heads if, for instance, Mick would have had and used Realtracks in BB to write "Satisfaction"...
--Mac
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It seems that this thread has gotten "a little off track". It seemed to stop being about guitar synths long ago and turned into a RealTracks discussion - which happens often. So I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents along those lines....
I like what Mario just said. BIAB provides as much (or more) variation in its thousands of available tracks as you will typically find from the best studio musicians. The one advantage that you get from "the studio musician" is that they are playing specifically for your song (the current project). But they are, after all, calling on their experience - for that particular song. So they can come up with something "unique" for the current sound/melody. But, keep in mind, that a studio session happens fast. A work tape gets played, the musicians write charts as they listen (one time - they are that good). They may discuss a chord here and there - and then they go. They are playing the same riffs that they always do. And they are great, perfect for the "song at hand". But we have the opportunity to do the same thing with BIAB. And we can take the time to re-generate over and over - and the variations are PHENOMENAL. In the comfort of your own home.
When those studio musicians are finished (in one or two takes) laying your tracks - and that singer comes in to sing your song - and the engineer spends time mixing that track - when you are handed that final "tape" (a CD) - you are writing a check to the studio for about the same price that BIAB costs, ONE TIME - and is available for the next 3,000 songs that you want to produce.
No brainer.
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If your studio time is only costing you the entry price of Band in a Box, don't complain, man.
If anyone want to know what the making of a CD in the studios is like, no problem, just put on a tuxedo and stand in a cold shower fully dressed while tearing up hundred dollar bills.
--Mac
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1. I was not complaining.
2. I was talking about one song, not an entire CD.
3. Not sure what a tuxedo and a shower have to do with producing a listenable song.
4. I was just trying to help.
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