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Joined: Jul 2004
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Hi All
I am in need of some tutoring - I have loosly used the BiaB styles for many years and notice the difference between "16th spaced" feel and "8th spaced feel" (I hope my terminology is correct). Being a guitar player I can feel the difference but have unable to find some theory to understand the relationship between timing, tempo and feel (and genre). A 4/4 or other time signature with a tempo (bpm) is clear to me but I do not fully understand the theory of "feel" (8th or 16th) and then the genre (rock, latin, pop, jazz, ..etc)also plays a role.
Can someone assist or provide a link to a web site that maybe clarifies these issues?
Thank you
Roy
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The musical term for this is "SUBDIVISION".
As usual, a big word used to describe a relatively easy thing <grin>.
When we say, "8th" we are really talking about the rhythmic pattern that 8th notes have.
Even that last sentence may seem full of double-talkin' new vocabulary, right?
Here's all you have to do:
There are two 8th notes for every single beat in a tune that is 8ths based.
Count the four beats to every bar in a 4/4 song, as it plays, by saying to yourself, "One-AND-Two-AND-Three-AND-Four-AND" and you've automatically put two notes on every beat in an Even feel. That is 8ths.
Sixteenths feel, there are twice as many notes per beat. 4 notes over each beat.
"One-A-and-ah, Two-A-and-ah" etc.
Of course, this is the FEEL that the musicians are counting and it is often counted in their heads while they don't always actually play on every one of the two or four beat subdivisions. They might elect to hold a chord or note out over two or more of those subdivisions, yet accent the subdivisions as well at different times in the bar or the song part. But the feel of it will still be there.
Good drill is to play various musics of different genres at random, and practice finding the number of beats per bar, whether in two, three, four beats to the bar, etc. and then counting out loud as in the above along with the songs.
The above is best done without regard to whatever is your favorite musical genre or form, as well. A lot can be learned a lot faster by doing that little drill with all sorts of musics, all sorts of styles, all sorts of genres, etc.
And don't neglect trying it with a few Classical Music offerings as well...
--Mac
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One last thing on this subject while I'm still thinking about it:
COUNT.
All. the. time.
Make that a habit, even if the song seems relatively easy to play without counting it.
"You can play the wrong note, but if it is at the right time, chances are good that you will get away with it. But even the right note, if played at the wrong time, will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb."
Far too many self-taught musicians fall into the notion that they can lean on other members of the band for the counting, particularly the drummer. This is a fallacy that will always lead to a less-than-stellar performance. Everybody in the ensemble has got to count for themselves as that is the only way that things initiate at the exact same time.
The various instruments were designed to emulate the human singing voice.
But the SONG is designed to emulate DANCE.
--Mac
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really great explanations! thanx Mac!
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Quote:
One last thing on this subject while I'm still thinking about it:
COUNT.
All. the. time.
Make that a habit, even if the song seems relatively easy to play without counting it.
"You can play the wrong note, but if it is at the right time, chances are good that you will get away with it. But even the right note, if played at the wrong time, will stick out like the proverbial sore thumb."
Far too many self-taught musicians fall into the notion that they can lean on other members of the band for the counting, particularly the drummer. This is a fallacy that will always lead to a less-than-stellar performance. Everybody in the ensemble has got to count for themselves as that is the only way that things initiate at the exact same time.
Yup, couldn't agree with you more...
But this:
Quote:
The various instruments were designed to emulate the human singing voice.
But the SONG is designed to emulate DANCE.
is the real gem - hope you don't mind if I quote you on that.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Just take the time to think about it and you will see that EVERYTHING has rhythm. Walking, shewing, breathing, brushing your teeth.... even your heart is measured in beats per minute! I find myself counting to 4 all the time. Walking from my car to my office... 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 Just like Saturday Night Fever with the paint can! Unless it's raining. Then it's 1-uh-and-uh-2-uh-and-uh-...... Try it for a day. Count your steps as quarter notes. L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R... Count your chews as 8th notes. As your teeth go down, that's the downbeat, and as your teeth go up, that's the backbeat. 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and..... Then when you brush your teeth, that's fast 16th notes. Make either back or down as your downbeat depending on how you brush. For 3/4 time, you're on your own.... maybe eat some hot soup. Scoop-blow-eat-scoop-blow-eat 
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Three Quarter time can be handled in the "classic" Strauss Waltz fashion:
One, Two, Three, One, Two Three
Where the emphasis is on the ONE of each bar.
That's the old, OOM-pah-pah of the Waltz.
The Jazz Waltz, however, is a lot better when the musicians are using the Back Beat.
Since one bar is not divisible evenly by two, we have to do the backbeat over each two successive bars, like this:
One, Two, Three, One, Two, Three...
Do it over and over, evenly, while snapping hour fingers to the highlighted beats and you'll soon discover that your fingers are actually snapping in 2/4 time, even though the song is 3/4, but this way of perceiving the events makes for that smooth sound of the jazz waltz rather than the oom-pah thang.
"Bluesette" is an old jazz standard that readily comes to mind.
--Mac
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I am with you Eddie. Daniel Barenboim used to say that every phrase is like a life, it has a birth, an ascendence then it fades away - seems to be interconnected with what you mean - I think
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Quote:
For 3/4 time, you're on your own.... maybe eat some hot soup. Scoop-blow-eat-scoop-blow-eat
HAHAHA! excellent!!
Alyn
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Thanks for the tips guys - I now need to move into "Macs Mode" to try and nail the feel of songs by counting as I am now feeling it without counting properly.
While on the topic of feel - why does a waltz type song (classical or pop) get peoples feet tapping so quickly and they seem to pick up a new melody much faster than songs other of the other time signatures?
Enjoy the new year
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Another brief question please!
Mac's explanation is for even rhytmic patterns of 8th and 16th notes in a 4/4 time signatutre song. In many music forms (and my BiaB) we also have swing styles - does this not complicate the topic even further (maybe not complicate it but just make it more interesting?). How is the swing feel then described?
Thank you
Roy
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EVen Feel is where each quarter note beat is subdivided by 2, yielding the 8th notes being even in duration. The "One-and-Two-and-Three-and-Four-and" thing. SWing feel, while being written on the notation in the same way as the above, each quarter note beat is actually subdivided into THREE's -- but not to be confused with the EVen feel's Triplets. When encountering two 8th notes tied together in SWing feel, they are played as the first note having a longer duration than the second note. "Dooo-bee, Dooo-bee, Dooo-bee, Dooo-bee" -- and in actuality would be an 8th note triplet figure with the first two notes tied together. Inside Band in a Box, in the Notation Editor View, you can easily see this as the dotted vertical subdivision lines are Three when SW feel is invoked in the Options window, but there will be four vertical subdivision dotted lines per beat when EV feel is invoked. Try opening one of the Demo songs that has notation on the Melody track and switch it back and forth in Edit view. Try that with both EV and SW examples. Then be sure to watch the note highlighting as the song plays, as well. Doesn't matter if you are not a chart reader here, it is the Rhythm of the thing that counts, the way the beat is subdivided. (Also really helps to accent beats TWO and FOUR instead of one and three when counting along with a SWing feel song. This is the "backbeat" -- clapping on 2 and 4 as done in the African-American church, or the part that a snare drum might typically hit in many rock and pop styles.) "It ain't whatcha do, its the way whatcha do it." -- This was a popular song back in the Swing era, actually a song about the above differences. Also the song I goto when teaching swing to the youngsters still today, simply because once the kids hear it, they GET it. Jimmy Lunceford's Lesson in Swing --Mac
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