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Please share your opinion.
Mine is that they generally don't understand the product, and how useful it can be in learning music theory, and learning one's instrument. In my opinion - no other product compares, and one would think there would be a copy in every music institution there is - and that almost every student would have a copy. Probably that's not the case - and perhaps it has to do with PG's marketing ?
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My opinion is they don't care because "our" music is ancient history to them. PG just added some Euro dance styles and that may bring in a few younger people but just go on Youtube and check out the demos for other DAW's especially Abelton Live. It's all about DJ's doing beatz, loops, hip hop and all that. There's a market for our "real" music but it's relatively small and fragmented. Almost forgot. Dubstep. Do you have any idea what that is? Search it on Youtube. You'll love it and while you're loving it try to imagine Biab creating something in that style. Also note the number of hits for those videos vs the number of hits for anything we might like.
While I may be decending into a bit of snarkyness here, I actually like some of that stuff. Some of it is very creative, it's just so completely foreign to anything most of us here have even heard of much less become a fan of. Oh yeah, check out Jordan Rudess and Dream Theater. No possiblity of any Biab style from that either.
The thing is all these styles of music taken as a group are maybe 75% of the total market that's why there are no 20 somethings here.
A lot of these kids are still schooled players but they're going to learn music in the style they like just like we do. Would you want to learn music by playing old 20's Charleston stuff?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
20's Charleston stuff
Great, now I've got THAT in my head all day .. 
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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the "regulars" ARE all older, but that doesn't mean there aren't young users.
I'll venture several guesses why they aren't here:
1) this forum is moderated and fairly civilized. In my forum-hanging days, it was my experience that young people gravitate toward totally uncontrolled forums where they can say and do whatever they want. This forum would not allow that.
2) It doesn't take long to figure out that the "regulars" are older. What kid wants to hang with gramps? Kids want to be where their peers are, not their parents and grandparents' peers.
3) BIAB assumes that the user has some knowledge of music theory. A generation of latch key kids raised by single parents who never got music lessons has gravitated toward software like FStudio, where the rules of music never come into play, as long as they can drag loops
4) BIAB stands alone as a music software product that caters to older styes of music that don't appeal to MOST kids (though there are exceptions)
standard disclaimer:
the opinions expressed here about stereotypes of young people are reflective of the OP point of view. PGMusic and its employees neither endorse nor support the opinions set forth in this post
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I still recall Steve Jobs marketing strategy of getting Apple computers into the schools, even at a loss. That gave Apple a huge, younger customer base but the long term affect was skewed by the lack of software for the platform. That may no longer be the case.
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I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "marketing".
In my opinion (and a few others judging by the wishlists)if PGM wants to attract a younger audience it needs:
1. The much requested modernization of the user interface
2. A possible streamlining or simplification of the feature set.
The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) acronym would probably be best with today's need for instant gratification
3. More modern styles and loops focusing on what the younger generations are into.
4. A youth oriented name change which could apply to this new, modified "lighter" version of BIA/RB. I kinda like "RealBand Studio" myself:)
This "lighter" companion version could be used as an introduction to the full blown program we all know and love.
Except for the new UI and the addition of some more modern styles, all the pieces are probably already there under the hood.
It may even be possible to ship the full blown program under the new name which could have features unlocked as it was upgraded or customized by the users.
Not knowing the economic situation of PGM and what they want as far as market share, it may not be cost effective at this time but may become a necessity if they want to bring the kids in.
Carkins
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I've noticed that maybe one in six of the younger set love to read the printed word.
There may be a lot of 'em texting about such things.
r u bb?
bb?
u no app band
gud 4 u?
'k roflol
--Mac
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ROFLMAO.
dude, u r wth it!
(That was very funny <<< old guy talk).
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Wonder if there is any correlation between fewer younger users, in general, involved in music and music production and the de-emphasis of music in our schools. I think so. I look at my nieces and nephews, they never had the exposue nor opportunity to be involved in music the way that I did. For them, it was all about sports. Music was something to do when "hangin".
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Young people don't don't like insanely long titles in forum threads. Have shorter, more concise thread titles and more young'ins will appear.
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If you want to see the flip side of this forum demographics, go to www.kvraudio.com forum. I think there are many reasons, have voiced them here, only to be lambasted as to why things are fine as they are. The following is the short list of my perceptions - whether well-founded or not: 1. PG is likely still just known at the BIAB company, which for most persons in the younger set, has little relevance to loop-based music creation/production. It's the domain of cover song, 1-man-band musicians. 2. The advertisements in print magazines still fall very far behind professional graphic design. People always have, and always will judge a book by it's cover. Contrast: http://www.pgmusic.com/index.htmlhttp://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.htmlhttp://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.htmlhttp://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-softwarehttp://www.reaper.fm/http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/http://ntrack.com/Nearly all have a video demonstrating main features. Some mix new with existing features. Steinberg's site looks similar from a graphic design standpoint, but most of the others look 'younger'. Hard to put specifics on what I mean here, but the graphic design looks more current. The main image on PG's BIAB site: http://www.pgmusic.com/css/gfx/pgbanner2013.jpg simply looks like it came from a clip-art package - plain and simple. The 'chart' font shown on BIAB features, is going to look strange to those that have never seen a chart before. That's a whole lot of people buying and using music software these days. Some are calling themselves 'producers' more than they are calling themselves musicians. Some are both. Most are creating music from a different mindset than learning how to best generate "Moon River", with which GM sound source to get the most realistic backing tracks. 3. The graphic design of the user interface seems nearly unchanged from the 1996 version that I started on and perhaps going back to before then. There was an update where there was given a choice of instrument icons for the track 'markers', which is available on GarageBand, but not most other DAW software. Most other more popular DAW software looks more current from a color choice, button design, graphic design, etc. Should this matter? - no - but the judging of the book by it's cover behavior is still in play. 4. PG's descriptions of it's products are somewhat behind the times. This is the descriptive text for PowerTracks Pro Audio: "PowerTracks Pro Audio is a full-featured, multi-track music sequencing and digital audio recording program. PowerTracks Pro Audio includes powerful and unique features such as: The Audio Chord Wizard, which automatically and accurately figures out the chords from MP3/WMA/WAV audio files, the TC Helicon Vocal Harmonizer to add harmonies or pitch correct your audio tracks, and RealDrums which allow you to instantly generate audio drum tracks that are real recordings of drummers - not single drum hit samples but full recordings lasting 1 to 8 bars." Note-the words "Digital Audio Workstation" or even DAW, do not appear. It's still referring to 'sequencing'. DAW has been the more known term for at least 10 years. 'Sequencers' go back to Dr. T's era. For BIAB, the main page does not describe the main thing that it does, but is a running list of updates. For existing users, great - for potentially new customers - very confusing. http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htmWhat is the main thing of BIAB, it's core purpose? If you hit the main BIAB page, you have to dig to find what it does. The front page is the 'new features' but doesn't address the one main thing that BIAB/RB do: Accompaniment Generation, either via Real Band tracks or MIDI. That's it's main 'cool thing' that separates it from anything else on the market. The front page for that product should make that loud and clear. Advertisements should make it loud and clear - and simple. In actuality, when hitting PGmusic.com, it should be something like this page, with a little bit of interactivity, and less text but more graphics to demonstrate how it actually works: http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.features.htm That page tells what it is but way too wordy. No video demonstrating function as the main feature of the page. Big mistake. Too much reading, not enough 'seeing'. I think Mountainside's comments probably have some effect on it as well. Exposure to traditional music appreciation and understanding is waning. jazzmammal hit on this from a different angle as well Bottom line as to jazzmammal's comments - the generative aspect of music these days is not about entering in a chord sequence and picking a style. That's a really cool thing for traditional songwriting, but for less traditional music, it's not really there. The production of the sound is as much of the process as the layout of the chords. Experimentation outside of the box, not in the box, is what people say they are looking for - though there are formulaic elements in these newer styles as well. -Scott btw, in my 40's closer to 50 than 40.
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Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...
Just sayin'
--Mac
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Keyboard; you owe me a new one for that
this one is soaked
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Probably the biggest deterrent to new users of ANY age is the lack of a SYSTEMATIC FREE video tutorial that covers BIAB and how to use it. You get video tutorials included in the “Everything Pak”, but they’re woefully inadequate.
You can fork over $39.00 for “BIAB for Bozo’s, Vol 1 & 2”, in order to get started, but while Vol 1 is a good starter, Vol 2 spends 30 minutes on manually entering notation. WTF?
If there were a 10 hour tutorial for BIAB, then I wouldn’t use even one minute of it on notation and how to enter it manually!
JMHO, the video tutorials are created from a developers POV. Peter should hire someone to create videos from a users POV.
It’s one thing to create a great program like BIAB. It’s another thing to throw new or inexperienced users to the wolves when it comes to figuring out how to use it.
Why aren’t there many young users? (Many options, … here’s mine). There’s not a half way decent video tutorial for the program, especially for new users.
(P.S. Pat, I know you’re THE BIAB cheerleader, (Peter should have you on salary, if he doesn't already), but there are legitimate complaints that people have about the program).
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Quote:
Keyboard; you owe me a new one for that
this one is soaked
nevah...
EVAH...
drink coffee while reading Mac's posts... he'll surprise you.
Quote:
(P.S. Pat, I know you’re the BIAB cheerleader, but there are legitimate complaints that people have about the program).
I know. These complaints and observations have been around for a long time.
But if you watch the statements I make in defense of the product, you'll notice that I take pains NOT to negate anybody's opinion. I may express an opposing opinion, but I firmly believe we are all entitled to an opinion that stands as your opinion and doesn't even need to be defended (as opinion)
My usual tactic, especially since many complaints take the form of "I can't do (fill in the blank) because this program sucks" is to point out a way that it CAN be done.
But this discussion is not about somebody whining about what he can't do. This discussion is about public perception, and on THAT topic whoever happens to be speaking is the best authority on his perception.
STAYIN'-OUT-OF-IT-O-METER
0___________________/_100
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Pat,
You made a better point on another thread when you mentioned “I don’t how”.
Let’s see how to fix this! …
Maybe some half way decent SYSTEMATIC tutorials!
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I run into BIAB in other music forums I frequent and have to admit it is beginning to get much better press due to word of mouth then a few years back. Lots of folks saying good things, and these are coming from a different cliental/demographic. But let me share one which I thought was very interesting as it seemed to hit on something. Now don't go off on this  . I present it as I feel it was well written and presented its point in a very honest, respectful and coherent manner. I know PGMusic has not asked for this opinion, but they have also not indicated that they do not want it either. And it is relavent to this thread. There will be no guessing on who wrote it.  "...its introduction of RealTracks was a massive leap forward. It's got many unique, clever features and deserves to be taken seriously. There's no other composition aid that can hold a candle to it. But it's its own worst enemy. To be terribly frank, as a program it's a ginormous Christmas tree of aged core code with many new baubles added each year. The user interface is very old fashioned and reminds me of something designed by the tent crew of a circus in terms of buttons and colours. It's not intuitive and is a mass of menus. So it looks amateurish which totally belies its ability to produce very professional results. A total rewrite is way overdue. The musical bias is way out of touch with today, and leans heavily on old jazz and country, with some of the nods in the direction of music of the last thirty years embarassing. Its loyal user base is also aging and the proprietors seem oddly content with that. If it was brought up to date in terms of interface and styles it would be an absolutely killer tool that no one would want to be without, and would be first in a field of one with all the success that entails. "
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Dan, Quote:
To be terribly frank, as a program it's a ginormous Christmas tree of aged core code with many new baubles added each year. The user interface is very old fashioned and reminds me of something designed by the tent crew of a circus in terms of buttons and colours. It's not intuitive and is a mass of menus. So it looks amateurish which totally belies its ability to produce very professional results. A total rewrite is way overdue. The musical bias is way out of touch with today, and leans heavily on old jazz and country, with some of the nods in the direction of music of the last thirty years embarassing. Its loyal user base is also aging and the proprietors seem oddly content with that. If it was brought up to date in terms of interface and styles it would be an absolutely killer tool that no one would want to be without, and would be first in a field of one with all the success that entails.
100 +'s.
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Quote:
...Its loyal user base is also aging
Hey, I resemble that remark!
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I also notice BIAB being mentioned in forums and almost every time it goes something like "what an amazing program but the interface is terribly outdated". My personal feeling is similar. The "tent crew of a circus" comment cracked me up but unfortunately rings true. And I agree with the comment about the musical bias being out of touch. Elderly jazz players is probably not gonna be a huge market going forward. (Absolutely no offense intended toward jazz players of any age!!) As I have mentioned on another post, the tutorials appear to be last updated in 2006, about 12 versions ago. New videos, of the current or most recent version, included for free along with my $469 purchase would be a lot more appropriate. But then again...I find myself asking why exactly we should care about all of this? Once you go through the BIAB learning curve you are able to create some pretty amazing music. The output is extraordinary even though the tool is not in tune with the latest software standards. I understand why PG should be concerned about all of this because not keeping up with the times is usually not a good thing for long-term survival. But why do we care as users? Wouldn't making BIAB easier to use make our lives harder as more and more people started using it to compete with us?
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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