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the GUI DOES matter. this has been proven over and over in plenty of studies. and companies like Apple have excelled at implementing great GUIs. for me the "eye candy" part is worthwhile but the usability and workflow improvements are really where a good GUI shines.
I don't really understand why anyone would feel the need to be defensive about this. it is OK to love BIAB and still acknowledge it has an out-of-date interface.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 02/03/13 02:42 AM.
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Those listening to our creations only hear the music, they can't see the gui of the software used to create that music, eh?
Wise words from Mac.
I would like the GUI of my current long term lady friend tweaked in a few spots BUT I would not change what is "under the hood" 
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I require hard DATA, plus proper analysis of said data when designing and redesigning.
There are some things I've noticed about these issues in my work in design.
*EVERYBODY thinks they can design it better.
This typically comes from people who have little experience in the design, prototyping, production and marketing fields. Much like the writers who declare themselves to be Music Critics, it is a rather easy task to take something, anything, and be critical about it in a negative fashion with little to no regard for actual realworld reasoning and experimentation that might have taken place during development.
*Disregard for the reasoning that lies behind designing a product in a certain way.
The best example for this one I can think of right now is Band in a Box itself (topical, eh?), Unlike just about any other program being sold today, Band in a Box does not wrie to the windows registry. BB still works from the "old fashioned" .exe file, which can be run standalone on any PC. The only parts of BB that must write to registry are the Fonts, PGMusic DX plugins, and any DXi synths you may wish to use for MIDI.
I don't know for certain the reasoning behind that decision, but do know that PGMusic is rather good about backwards compatibility issues, plus trying to make an ever increasing program load still work on older and slower computers, a factor that I'm sure helps people to still use the product on a worldwide basis. Before someone points out that Realtracks in a file sent to someone with a version of BB that shipped before RealTracks came out (or any other New Feature for that matter), that file *can still be loaded and played* on the older version with the substitution of an earlier MIDI file. This might not be important to those who can afford to keep up with the latest and greatest fast offerings, but I have no idea how many users there are in the world who cannot do that - and neither does anyone who has no access to PGMusic sales records. Even then, there would be a need to figure out how many past users are *still* users, plus a few more datapoints before any good solid enumeration of what's going on could be done.
*For those who say that the BB screen is "too busy" -- this critique I answer in the same fashion as for those who have said same about various controls and systems I've worked on in the day job. "Okay, what would you remove?" -- And back it up with sound logic.
Finally, thinking back on the questions I've attempted to answer on these forums over the years, I would say offhand that a large percentage have been involved with issues other than the complexity of the controls and commands, for example, quite a few have been involved with rather common Music Theory issues, naming of chords, understanding of tempo or timing, Key Signature issues being little understood, concepts of Chorus and Verse based on the vernacular used for lyrics and not accepted Music Theory Practice, use of Fakebooks to try to do song and chord entry when there is no standard out trhere for fake chords and the likes making translation to the types that BB uses to be misunderstood, well, a whole host of issues that have nothing at all to do with the Band in a Box screen and control presentation. Matter of fact, these are all issues that would fit better under the heading of Music Education.
--Mac
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Quote:
Finally, thinking back on the questions I've attempted to answer on these forums over the years, I would say offhand that a large percentage have been involved with issues other than the complexity of the controls and commands, for example, quite a few have been involved with rather common Music Theory issues, naming of chords, understanding of tempo or timing, Key Signature issues being little understood, concepts of Chorus and Verse based on the vernacular used for lyrics and not accepted Music Theory Practice, use of Fakebooks to try to do song and chord entry when there is no standard out trhere for fake chords and the likes making translation to the types that BB uses to be misunderstood, well, a whole host of issues that have nothing at all to do with the Band in a Box screen and control presentation. Matter of fact, these are all issues that would fit better under the heading of Music Education.
This is absolutely true, and I, for one, have benefited enormously. Thanks.
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Mac, you make good points but you don't need a degree in music or GUI design to provide useful input on a software interface that harkens back to DOS or Windows 3! In fact, when I have designed GUI (and I have been doing it for 28 years) I seek out inexperienced users so I can conduct focus groups and make sure I get it right. It proves very little if the experts can figure out how to use the software, unless you are only marketing to experts!
So I'll keep using BIAB because what it outputs is nothing short of amazing as you pointed out earlier!! But I also encourage PG to listen to the GUI comments and implement as many as possible. Because there is no real competition they have been successful in spite of their GUI but I suspect when and if real competition arrives with a sleek GUI like Reaper or ProTools this could change.
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There was s car named the Turnpike Cruiser...
Nobody today has likely even ever heard of it.
This car was supposed to make the Ford Motor Company competitve with General Motors sales.
The project was headed by a man named Jack Reith.
Reith insisted on doing the entire project only the way he saw it to be done.
He did not listen to the inputs of designers, engineers, marketing, advertising or sales.
He got Henry Ford II to give him literal carte blanche on the project by promising that Ford was going to bury GM with this new car.
He tried to gain on the competition by doing what he thought was exactly what the competition was doing. Well, he also figured that the way to go was to do even more of what he thought the competition was doing.
But what the competition was doing at the time was just as bad.
The Turnpike Cruiser was only on sale for one model year.
It was followed by the Edsel. Still the top honor for the largest amount of money ever lost on a single car in Detroit.
Jack Reith?
He got fired and later committed suicide.
--Mac
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great point Mac. Jack Reith should have listened to his users as well as designers, engineers, marketing, advertising and sales! and I Googled that car you mentioned. OMG it is easy to forget just how big cars were back then! http://www.plan59.com/images/JPGs/mercury_1957_turnpike_cruiser_black_00.jpg
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Jack DID survey users.
But then he proceeded to cherry pick the data to fit what he wanted to do...
--Mac
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sometimes that works and sometimes it does not! Ask Steve Jobs (or anyone who worked for him) whether he ever pushed his opinions on stuff.
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I equate the genius that is Peter Gannon with the kind of genius that was Steve Jobs.
Case in point, when lots of folks were Wishlisting for Drum Loop capability, likely because they only knew of Drum Loop capability from other programs such as Acid and Frooty Loops, Peter came up with RealDrums. Totally unexpected, and, an elegant answer in its own right. MUCH easier than forcing the user to have to try to assemble canned Drum Loops one bar or four at a time, RealDtums not only can generate the entire drum part with one button push, from the very beginning it could also automatically substitute RealDrums in any already existing MIDI style, provided there was a match. And inside the RealDrums Picker, we could even control how tight or loose that automatic substitution could be.
Band in a Box is different - and it is my contention that the difference should be celebrated rather than pushing to have it just become "like" something else already out there.
Steve Jobs' methodologies are an excellent example of daring to be different in an age of across-the-board conformity. He also represents a designer who often refused to listen to the input of others about whether or not to implement something in a fashion different from the existing commonality. Sometimes you incur losses when doing that, but the individual who is able to land on their feet and keep on with the new ideas often prevails.
--Mac
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Mac, I agree whole heartedly with your assessment of Gannon and I have stated over and over how awesome BIAB is! You will get no argument from me there. But with that said, I can still see vast improvement opportunities for the BIAB GUI.
You seem to be saying BIAB is so great we should be happy and not ask for more. That is where I respectfully disagree with you. I LOVE BIAB AND I believe it needs a major GUI overhaul!
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I think Mac is suspiciously defensive on this GUI question - Mac - did you play a big part in designing that GUI ; )
Last edited by Joe V; 02/03/13 06:41 PM.
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Quote:
You seem to be saying BIAB is so great we should be happy and not ask for more.
Nope, that's not it at all.
I'm saying that Peter Gannon and company are the decision makers about their fine product and that I don't want to insist on them doing things in any certain way, that when they do implement designs said designs are quite often in a direction from the madding crowd, and when they do that they typically come up with the more elegant solution.
Another example is PG's note entry method. Absolutely wonderful, faster and if you want to talk user-friendliness, there it is. And I know of no other program that uses notation that has anything even close to it. Should they then make it more like the rest?
That and I tend to view this situation from the standpoint of being the crusty curmudgeon, PGMusic is Peter's baby and already a huge success. I don't think he got to this point by imitating others all that much.
Over the years I've seen so many of the famous New Features go in directions that are actually quite unique and always quite usable, once understood. When something is entirely new and different, the user has got to be prepared to learn how to use it.
--Mac
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I think Mac is suspiciously defensive on this GUI question - Mac - did you play a big part in designing that GUI ; )
The implication that I might be that kind of man is noted.
This is just personal attack in lieu of sound argument.
Use of emoticon to hide behind doesn't work as such is not funny.
--Mac
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there's an old joke about a sign hanging in the auto repair shop which says "Good Price. Quality Workmanship. Fast Turnaround. Pick any two"
When you can't have everything, you have to prioritize what is a MUST HAVE and what is a luxury. Not everybody prioritizes the same things.
If I had to choose between features and interface, I'd concede the interface and insist on features.
Granted, the interface is not a core strength of the product, but it gets the job done.
If I were scratching my head trying to decide whether to buy the latest version... if the main change was a bunch of new real tracks I liked, I would probably go for it. But if the main change was an interface change, I would certainly skip that release. That's just my preference.
And I bet I'm not the only person who feels that way.
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Pat you make an excellent point about prioritizing. My priority would be different; I would welcome an updated interface because that would improve my workflow.
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Quote:
Quote:
You seem to be saying BIAB is so great we should be happy and not ask for more.
Nope, that's not it at all.
I'm saying that Peter Gannon and company are the decision makers about their fine product and that I don't want to insist on them doing things in any certain way, that when they do implement designs said designs are quite often in a direction from the madding crowd, and when they do that they typically come up with the more elegant solution.
Another example is PG's note entry method. Absolutely wonderful, faster and if you want to talk user-friendliness, there it is. And I know of no other program that uses notation that has anything even close to it. Should they then make it more like the rest?
That and I tend to view this situation from the standpoint of being the crusty curmudgeon, PGMusic is Peter's baby and already a huge success. I don't think he got to this point by imitating others all that much.
Over the years I've seen so many of the famous New Features go in directions that are actually quite unique and always quite usable, once understood. When something is entirely new and different, the user has got to be prepared to learn how to use it.
--Mac
Mac, you keep saying that we want PG to imitate others! Nope! I would just like to see them update their GUI from 1991 to 2013. That is a perfectly reasonable suggestion! And really there is nothing you can say to me to convince me a piece of Windows software with a 90's interface could not use improvement!
So you and I will just have to disagree on GUI. And that's OK. We agree that the output of BIAB is simply awesome.
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The GUI debate has been ongoing for a long time. I think we can all agree that BiaB could use some modernization. There are a few issues involved. 1 BiaB is somewhat of a utilitarian type software. Far more so that protools, reaper, sonar, logic, etc. all of these are just DAW software. All very full featured, but certainly nothing like BiaB, not even close. BIaB does what a half dozen other softwares do combined. 2. It also has a deep user base, each using it for very different things. Teaching, practice, auto generation of song bases, live performance, and a few others. Each of these require different approaches, and different tools sets. Where do you draw the line with GUI changes, and who do you listen to? So far PG chooses to leave that alone and focus on new features, and more tools, rather than a fancy new modern look.
With Reaper for instance new features are focused around either midi upgrades, and or audio processing upgrades. So face lifts are really just I eye candy issues, and the entire program is tailored towards user input. BiaB has about 20 to 30 features that Reaper does not even sniff at. I mean reaper, sonar, protools, do not have styles, chord wizards, RTs , RDs, melody generators, harmony generators, and I could go on and on. How do simplify all this with so many people using it for so many reasons.
One of the biggest gripes I heard over at the sonar forums when they did the big GUI changes for sonar X1 was that things were not where folks were used to. When MS word and Excel we're upgrade to new GUIs again they argued that " I can't find anything" I think this is PGs fear. Where do you start, and stop.
Finally I agree it could use some modernization, but really it is not at the loss of new features, and tools.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Quote:
The implication that I might be that kind of man is noted.
This is just personal attack in lieu of sound argument.
My name is Joe Videtto, and...I am a hoarder.
... (if you saw my garage, basement area, and desk at work, you'd understand...)
My name is Joe Videtto, and...I love music and having other people to talk about with it.
... (a very personal thank you to Mac, Peter (yes...the Peter), Pat, Bob, Bob, Bob (I think I got all Bobs), Ryszard, ZeroZero, Danny, ROG, Silvertones,Scott, Mario, Eddie, Rob...and all you guys that give me free music lessons on every post I put up here).
My name is Joe Videtto, and...I'm a good guy at heart, but often accidentally say things that ***** people off or insult them...maybe I have a tinge of Asperger syndrome.
... (Mac - that was really meant to be funny, regardless of whether there was any fact to it, to me it is funny to point out in a lighthearted way when someone seems to be a little overly opinionated, fixed, or attached to a particular issue. Of course, if you have to explain it like I am right now, it's obviously not funny. To the extent that you took the comment as one about your character - here is my public apology "Sorry Mac - I didn't mean it in that way, and if it came across that way, I'll refrain from such comments in the future").
Last edited by Joe V; 02/04/13 03:57 AM.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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