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Although others on the forum don't reommend the use of accompinament software (http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=398617&an=0&page=1#Post398617), nevertheless I'm interested in pursuing a package that works well. The software I'm currently demoing is Home Concert Xtreme (http://www.zenph.com/hcx) or HCX, for short. Although the demo doesn't work with any files other than 5 samples that are "baked into" the demo, I've been collaborating with someone else online who does have the full software. He's been testing whether HCX works with MIDI files edited in various software applications (including BIAB). So far, our results have had very limited success. It seems that HCX is very specific as to the requirements of the MIDI file. So, I'm wondering if there are other software applications out there that do the same thing that HCX purports to do? I believe that the category of this type of product is "accompinament software" (but I could be wrong). If so, I'd like to try them out (if downloadable demos are offered). In order to clarify what I'm looking for, here's an example of this type software. It's a video of HCX, working with a sample file included in the full product: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n27pR-Bz3eQIf anyone knows of a product that does this kind of thing successfully, I'd appreciate hearing about. A clickable link would be even better! Thanks! Bert
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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This is very interesting Bert. In addition to the YouTube vid, I took a look at their site: http://www.zenph.com/zenph-software . It would be great if BIAB could do this...seems that it's pretty close already in that it displays notation, does accompaniment, etc...but just doesn't follow your playing....seems like it would be an easy programming change for PG to make. Also, I wonder how would HCX handle non-piano leads...for example if the lead were from a sax in a jazz quartet? Could you only play the right hand sax part and have HCX play bass, strings, piano accompaniment?
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Quote:
....Also, I wonder how would HCX handle non-piano leads...for example if the lead were from a sax in a jazz quartet? Could you only play the right hand sax part and have HCX play bass, strings, piano accompaniment?
Not sure about this because I don't own the full program (only the demo). I think the answer first depends upon whether the MIDI file in question is compatible with HCX. (That seems to often be an issue with from what I've seen.) If compatible, I would think that you could play any lead with your MIDI keyboard, but I'm not sure.
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Well if these guys are still in XP, Flintstone OS mode, then I'd bet doctor Gannon could probably buy the company with his pocket change add it on as a feature!
WSS
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That's a good point WestSide. Still seems like it would be pretty easy to get BIAB to follow your input tempo...not being a programmer myself and all. Perhaps the "ReDirector" guru Mr Warren or our other techies can add some insight on how this can be done. It would be the next logical step in making BIAB a better "learners" program and still allow full access to the more proficient players.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Notion has an NTempo feature that allows something like this... But you need to have someone as "conductor" tapping the tempo into the computer. So not useful for a solo performer. Putting this into BIAB raises some interesting questions. You've got a particular tempo, and a predicted arrival time of new notes. If the notes arrive early, you've got to jump ahead to after their arrival point. If they arrive late, you've to hold the notes until the note finally arrives... Which may never happen. Sustaining a note forever isn't a problem for a MIDI-only application. But for RealTracks, it raises big issues. It's certainly possible to do - for example, it could loop back to the last 1/ nth second of music with crossfading to avoid nasty clicks. Not elegant, but it might work. What about "near misses"? Do you have to hit the note, or can something "close enough" work? Does the program have a look-ahead, so if you miss a note and keep going, it notices? That's a more thorny problem, because you probably don't want the accompaniment to simply stop when you miss a note. It would be interesting to play along with the software, and see what the experience is like. That's really the best way to find out. But it seems to me that it's not a very realistic experience. That is, in "real life", accompaniment doesn't stop when you miss a note. Tempo changes aren't instantaneous, either. I think a better experience would come from the program adjusting the tempo using weights based on the note duration and a running average. It wouldn't "wait" for you as Home Concert Xtreme does, but I think the experience would be more organic, and more forgiving to performance goofs. After all, the software would "follow" you (literally), and adjust to your playing tempo. Plus, it would work with BIAB. The biggest question is, what do you do if a note doesn't come? There's a point where you've simply got to move on. So any given "expected" note is only active for a limited window. Every note after the first arrives after it's predecessor. So the expected arrival time of a note depend on the actual arrival time of the prior note. And you can't know that until the prior note arrives. If there's a missed note, how do you resolve this? It's solvable in lots of different ways, and I better stop before I try to work out the full algorithm. 
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Quote:
Notion has an NTempo feature that allows something like this... But you need to have someone as "conductor" tapping the tempo into the computer. So not useful for a solo performer.
Putting this into BIAB raises some interesting questions.
You've got a particular tempo, and a predicted arrival time of new notes. If the notes arrive early, you've got to jump ahead to after their arrival point. If they arrive late, you've to hold the notes until the note finally arrives... Which may never happen.
Sustaining a note forever isn't a problem for a MIDI-only application. But for RealTracks, it raises big issues. It's certainly possible to do - for example, it could loop back to the last 1/nth second of music with crossfading to avoid nasty clicks. Not elegant, but it might work.
What about "near misses"? Do you have to hit the note, or can something "close enough" work? Does the program have a look-ahead, so if you miss a note and keep going, it notices? That's a more thorny problem, because you probably don't want the accompaniment to simply stop when you miss a note.
It would be interesting to play along with the software, and see what the experience is like. That's really the best way to find out. But it seems to me that it's not a very realistic experience. That is, in "real life", accompaniment doesn't stop when you miss a note. Tempo changes aren't instantaneous, either.
I think a better experience would come from the program adjusting the tempo using weights based on the note duration and a running average. It wouldn't "wait" for you as Home Concert Xtreme does, but I think the experience would be more organic, and more forgiving to performance goofs. After all, the software would "follow" you (literally), and adjust to your playing tempo.
Plus, it would work with BIAB.
The biggest question is, what do you do if a note doesn't come? There's a point where you've simply got to move on. So any given "expected" note is only active for a limited window. Every note after the first arrives after it's predecessor. So the expected arrival time of a note depend on the actual arrival time of the prior note. And you can't know that until the prior note arrives. If there's a missed note, how do you resolve this?
It's solvable in lots of different ways, and I better stop before I try to work out the full algorithm.
Interesting points!
But - to clarify - Home Concert Xtreme only completely stops if the correct note isn't played when it's in "Learn" mode. When in "Performance" mode, it doesn't stop abruptly if a note it expects isn't played. (At least not with the demo.) The best way to describe it is that it continues (at perhaps a slightly slower tempo briefly) until it again picks up where you are in your playing. In other words, it doesn't immediately notice your error, like it does in "Learn" mode. Of course, if you slow down the tempo, it slows down after a few bars. If you speed up, it speeds up after a few bars. IIRC, if you stop playing completely, I think that HCX just continues playing. (I'd have to double-check that.) If you jump to another section of the piece, HCX does it's best to recognize where you are and continue from there. Again - This is in "Performance" mode. In "Jam" mode, it just plays along with no regard to what you're doing - It's your job to keep up.
The second point I wanted to make is that I would think this type of application would be geared more towards the home hobbyist (someone like me) who "plays for him/herself", doesn't hit every note perfectly, but wants an enhanced experience. I don't think it would be useful for a live performer in a performance setting.
As the OP, I wasn't necessarily pushing for this type of capability to be incorporated into BIAB (although that would be neat!). I was just hoping to hear whether there are other similar software applications to HCX and whether any of them are fully compatible with any particular notation application.
Any thoughts on that aspect?
Thanks!
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Actually to me it seems like a recipe for disaster. I want a solid accompaniment program that keep good time, and that I can follow along with like a good solid well practiced band. To have it slow up, or down after a bar or two would be very uncomfortable. If i am singing and playing guitar along with band in a box and i forget a chord, or get slightly distracted by someone i want the "band" to play on. i will catch up at the next bar.
Might be an interesting concept, but backwards to my needs.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Quote:
Actually to me it seems like a recipe for disaster. I want a solid accompaniment program that keep good time, and that I can follow along with like a good solid well practiced band. To have it slow up, or down after a bar or two would be very uncomfortable. If i am singing and playing guitar along with band in a box and i forget a chord, or get slightly distracted by someone i want the "band" to play on. i will catch up at the next bar.
Might be an interesting concept, but backwards to my needs.
Rob, agreed! Frankly, I wasn't impressed.
I'm still "going to school" on BIAB/RB which promises so much more. I saw only a tiny bit that BB/RB can't do and do so much better but I didn't want to rain on OP's procession.
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Such is indeed a disaster, a recipe for reinforcing how to play out of tempo.
Not. Good.
--Mac
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Good evening. I've been working with Bert to find a good combination of accompaniment and notation software. I own HCX for both PC and iPad. I like it, but am not wedded to it.
I'd like to clarify one point where there seems to be confusion... To reiterate Bert's comment about Jam mode - once it starts, it keeps going regardless of what you do. The tempo never changes.
Regarding channels, you can turn off different channels in any mode. Press a button, it's off. Press again, it's off.
Regards,
Dan.
P.s. I'm not sure I like Perform mode. I find it a bit disconcerting. So I don't use it.
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Hah..
Next rehearsal tell the drummer and bass player just follow me....
WSS 
Last edited by Westside Steve; 02/16/13 07:12 AM.
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I switched the video and it is a nice little learning program, but I don't see a performance. Advantage over BiaB, RB.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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